This is the FCP Podcast Network. Welcome to a special edition of The Outlaws. This is Darvey O the Kingpenmorrow. For those of you who are long time listeners of this show, you may notice that this intro is a little different than what we normally do in the business. This is called a cold open due to the severity of the topics that we're getting ready to discuss, it felt more appropriate to open the show this way instead of with our regular you know, theme music and all of the things that we normally do to open up an episode of this show. Those of you who are who follow me on social media know that I've been very vocal about the heinous attack against these Raeli people from Hamas, the terrorist group that murdered in cold blood innocent people, men, women, children, babies, seniors, Holocaust survivors. It has been a horrible thing to watch. It has been a horrible historic event to witness, and you know I've been I've been thinking ever since it happened, what is the best route to address it. Those who listen to this show normally, you know that we address the news of the day on a regular basis, whether it is the three of us together or whether it's an episode where it's just me or two of us. You all know that we address what's going on, and you know, this is something that has been so abhorrent to see. It's been hard to figure out how to how to address it, and I think we have the the best approach here. I thought that it would be better to bring on two people who are impacted or know people that have been impacted by this, by this tragedy, and so what we're going to do, obviously, everything is a little different this week. So what we're going to do is we're going to go into the interview now, We'll take a break on the other side, and then I'll be back to close it out. So we're going to get to our interview right now. All right. We have two very special guests with us on the show today. I wanted to make sure that we talk to people who obviously have knowledge about these issues in response to what has been going on, the attacks that happened in Israel by Hamas and the subsequent war that has transpired as a result. So we have two guests with us here. We have Michelle Wise, who is the vice mayor of the City of University Heights, which is a suburb here in Cleveland, and we have Susan Borrison, who is the chair of the Community Relations Committee for the Jewish Federation of Cleveland. Welcome to you both, Thank you, thank you. All right, So, Michelle, let's let's start with you talk a little bit about as the events unfolded on that Saturday, how how did you process it? How did you how did you feel seeing that heinous that heinous attack that happened in Gos. Yeah, so it actually was a Jewish holiday besides the Sabbath, and on I'm an Orthodox Jew, so I'm the Sabbath. We don't muse electronics, so we wouldn't be able to look at the TV or our phones. But words started getting around. We have a lot of unfortunately, we have to have security at all of our places of worship and schools in the Jewish community now, so a lot of the security guards were We're mentioning something two different congregants, and we knew a little bit about what was happening throughout that holiday. It ended Sunday night, and right away, you know, we kind of plugged in. I personally have a daughter and her family that lives there, as well as other family members and friends, and it's just it was a feeling of of shock, of you're scared, you're shocked, you can't focus, and it's and it's continued to today. I mean, that's the number one thing that's on all of the Jewish people's minds. Are you know, we want we want our country to feel secure. We don't want any more loss of life. And the scary part is is we see you know, kind of bits and pieces of anti Semitism coming out now as well, which is very scary in our own country. Yeah, there's been some very disturbing, I think, and blatant instances of anti Semitism in the public discourse since these events have taken place. And Susan, I'll go to you real quick. So and obviously we're talking about an issue that has been it's very complicated. It's been going on for decades and decades and decades. But you know, I've had people who have come to me, I you know, paid attention to this issue and kind of locked in. But you know, I've had people who come to me and they're like, man, when I try to research this thing and makes it I had one person PARTICU tell me, man, it makes my head hurt when I look this stuff up because it's so complex and they don't know what to trust, who to believe all that kind of stuff. So for people who may not be familiar, I mean a cliff Notes version, can you can you explain to people a little bit about how we got here? For people who are like man, I don't know. This is the first time I've heard about this stuff. I don't know what to believe. I'm seeing this over here, I'm seeing that over there. Can you tell people a little bit about how we got it first time? I just want to thank you Darviia for having us on and talking about this, and it means so much to us as a Jewish community when people outside of our community want to hear our story, give us a platform, and are helping us amplify the message of anti Semitism is not okay ever, And an answer to your question, what I want to say is that what preceded the events of Saturday, Oct seventh. I want to separate what's out in the news and what historically has taken place with what happened on that day, because in my mind, there is nothing that happened prior to October seventh that would lead to a terrorist organization taking twenty babies and decapitating them alive and burning them in their cribs. There's nothing that could have happened prior to this moment that would justify a music festival of thousands of people. I mean, think about Coachella in the United States and the freedom and the demographic of who goes to Coachella and the sense of just being one with music outdoors, and those people not only were they murdered, two hundred and fifty of those concert goers were murdered, but next to the dead bodies, girls were being raped. So I mean, these are just a few of the horrific, heinous stories that came out from October seventh, and there is just nothing that happens historically that allows for this terrorism. And it is terrorism on so many levels because a country that has to deal with that loss of life and that vulnerability from a terrorist organization worries about every step they take after that, And that is true terrorism. To be put in that position of loss of loved ones, missing people, capture people, it is it's such a tenuous time right now, and the anxiety that we're walking around within the United States right now is very high and amplified dramatically if you're living in Israel. Nobody that we know on Israel hasn't gone to a funeral of somebody they cared about. Yeah, I mean, this is the largest tack on Jews at one time since the Holocaust, you know, and it was it was barbaric, It was horrific some of the some of the scenes and everything that we heard coming out of coming out of what happened. And so there's so much misinformation out right now. I know somebody in particular who, like I said, is just very confused because there's so much propaganda out here right now. We just saw we'll get into it in a little bit. We just saw another propaganda attempt that a bunch of people ran with in the media now comes to find out that it wasn't true, and we'll touch on that in a little bit. So, but for people who are trying to figure this thing out, like are there resources that they can go to, like where where can they go so they can get the actual truth and not and not propaganda that's being placed out here by terrorists. So I I am on their newsletter for Jewish federations of North America, and every day I get an update and it is easy to follow, very informative talking points around what happened the day prior. I love Heather Coxard Richardson for everything. She has a newsletter. She's unbelievable. And there are a lot of people on social media who have really firsthand knowledge of what's going on. There's here's another one. The Free Press also very excellent information. Michelle, Where are you going to for your information? So I found that The Times of Israel is actually a very good news source. It has an app also so you can get up to date, up to date issues that are you know, that are happening, and they also they have a lot of editorials where they explain kind of you know, the history, you know this this the one thing that I did want to say is, you know, this is literally from the beginning of time. I've seen timelines which I'm happy to share with you through email of of you know, how the Jews have always been in the land of Israel until today, and that that there was no Palestinian occupation ever, you know, the most recent try for peace and the Jews have always the State of Israel has always tried to make peace. They do not want war. You know, they are such a moral country that before they go and invade anything. This is not just now, this is in the past. They literally drop leaflets and tell the civilians you need to get out now, this is the time that we're dropping a bomb or coming in. Just to add to that, which I'm so glad you mentioned the the Israeli army did do that, and they're doing that now to tell the Palestinians to get out of the line of fire, and Hamas is blocking them and Egypt doesn't want to let them in. So the story is hot. I mean, they're being held hostage in their own country by their own people. Yeah, And just you know, to kind of piggyback off of that, in two thousand and five, Israel, in a show of you know, an extending their hand for peace, pulled out of Gaza. All of the Israeli citizens pulled out, and they returned that strip of Gaza to the Palestinian people so they would be able to thrive in freedom. But Hamas overtook Gaza and they have oppressed the Palestinians that live there. You know, that is the that is the closest in terms of a timeline of what's happening Israel doesn't occupy as Is. That narrative is being you know, spread, it's hamas Is their own people. And you know, going back to your your first point, Michelle, when you talked about how you know this is really from the beginning of time. You know, I'm I'm I'm not Jewish, but I'm I'm a Christian and my Bible tells me the same thing. Jewish people have always been in the in the land of Israel. So you know, I completely agree with you on that point. You know, the kind of blatant, unapologetic anti Semitism that we've been seeing, especially on social media, has been a little disturbing to me. And of course, you know, as as a black man, I understand what bigotry looks like and what it feels like and stuff like that. So for you, Michelle, when you see, you know, some of this just blatant hatred, this blatant anti semitism, how does that as a as a Jewish person, how does that make you feel personally? I want to I think sometimes it's easy to for people to the dehumanized folks that they don't know to dehumanize communities that they don't know. So I want you to give your perspective so that people can hear it from someone who would be affected by it. How does you know, how how do you process that? How does it make you feel when you see, you know, that level of hatred. You know, I always try to look at the positive, and I hope that it's because of ignorance and not because of evil. When you know there have been the the the presentation of anti Semitism has has just gotten worse over the last over the last few years. You know, as I before, all of our schools, all the Jewish schools, all the Jewish synagogues, I'll have armed guards. Now. That just shows you the fear that the Jewish people are walking around with in America. You know, in the nineteen forties when World War Two is you know, everyone was fleeing to America or they were fleeing to Israel to get away from that hate. And I think they felt safe in America for many, many years. But I can tell you it's an interesting perspective for a Jewish person. But I always have my passport ready, and my passport is ready to go to Israel to escape hatred that I hope never comes here again. But the fear is that it's actually starting now. I feel bad for other races or ethnicities that don't have an Israel for them because where are they going to go? But there's a real tangible fear now, and I feel bad for, you know, for the future generations. I hope that people are not silent like they were during World War Two, right right, absolutely, And Susan to go back to you, I know, first of all, I want to tell you I appreciate the thanks that you gave for being on this platform. And one of the one of the reasons why I'm kind of passionate about this. First of all, I'm a student of history, and I know that for a long period of time there has been connectivity between both of our communities, and there's been relationships between both of our communities. We've had almost kind of like a a shared experience. We both understand what what bigotry feels like and what oppression feels like. And you know, I'm aware of that. I'm aware of, you know, the participation of the Jewish community and the civil rights movement, for example, and and some of the other things that have impacted my community. So being a student of history and understanding that and understanding that, you know, even up to recent times, you know, there have been times where you all have stood by us, and you know, I think as a result of that, I think it's important to stand by you now. So I appreciate, I appreciate that, thanks for being on this platform. So for people like me or others who may not be Jewish, but are you know, passionate about this issue or care about this issue, how can they how can they help, how can they get involved? What can they do to help right now with this, with what's going on. I would say that the very first thing that I want to ask of people is to really pay attention to the news and the rhetoric. It's so hard to be to he said, she said, kind of argument, which was what was going on yesterday about a hospital in Gaza being hit by a rocket. But today even our country, the Pentagon, has independently verified that an Islamic jihad rocket is what was responsible for blowing up the hospital in Gaza. So what I've been asking people when I've been interviewed is to please hold the narrative of October seventh and the horror and the terror of that day, and don't let the shift in public opinion sway what actually went on here. Now it's easy to point fingers and say that Israel took down a hospital yesterday. This is the same Israel that sent out flyers to say get out of here because we want to come in and get the hostages that Hamas has. They have I think two hundred people that they're holding hostage. And if Hamas would give the two hundred hostages to Israel, the ground incursion would look very differently. So you know this story of needing to see Israel in a light of through this lens of anti Semitism. Keep in mind that we share this story together of oppression. As you just said, that our histories are aligned in this. When racism goes up, anti Semitism goes up, and vice versa. That this notion of hating others and othering others in order to dehumanize them and be able to take something away, we share that story. So be our witnesses and go out there. And when you see graffiti which was just found in Cleveland today, tell somebody so that they can take it down. If someone's speaking about this situation in terms other than what you're hearing right now from us, Please say that the facts are not supporting the story you are hearing right now. And that's really the best thing we can ask from people, because it is so hard to beat the social media war going on right now of blaming it on Israel, Israel saying we didn't do it, saying of course Israel did it. How do you win that game. So we need partners in this kind of rally forward to say there's research, there's footage, it was not Israel that sent the rocket in, and that piece of information sets everybody. I mean, what a horrible story to hit a hospital. We would want to apologize for that if that happened on our end, but it didn't. It happened from terrorism, and it's the goal of terrorism by doing these things is to shift the public tide, and it's working. So help us take it back, help us take the true story back, And that's the best thing we can ask of you right now. Be our partners in this story. Yeah, I'm glad you touched on what recently happened with the hospital because I wanted to touch on that because I think it's an example of how the lack of fact checking and cause media malpractice. How people ran with that story. They ran I mean it was propaganda from a terrorist organization, and they media outlets ran with that story. It went worldwide, and to me, it was like an example of how going with propaganda can can put people's lives in danger. So, from a media standpoint, what can the media do susan to be more responsible on covering this. This is not when you're dealing with matters of war and life and death. It's not like the regular horse trading or some of the other topics that the media usually covers. I mean, this is actual life and death stuff. And we saw that there were a lot of people that got active yesterday because of believing the story that turned out to be completely false. Everybody was holding their breath yesterday when that story came out. And what I would say to the media is take a moment till the facts are verified. I think that that's something we rely on in a free press, that you verify before you share. And immediately, news outlets were sending emails out announcing that Israel had targeted a hospital, and then very quickly after that, Israel denied it. There were investigations into it, and it turns out with the terrorists that did it to their own people. So I think that when we hear something being told that doesn't sit well. I've never been one to do this before, but I'm doing it now. I am sending emails to newsletters I get that I typically really enjoy reading that are coming up with a very one sided pro terrorism voice, and I'm saying to them, like, the damage you are causing and the danger you're putting out there is really it's horrible. It's adding injury to insult to injury. I think Americans rely on the news to report factual information and unfortunately, you know, over the last few years, I think there's been a lot of misinformation that has come out, and they there needs to be integrity back. You know, in journalism, I think a lot of people do a great job, but you know, I think social media has kind of polluted what journalism really was. Well. I think the media is jumping right after that because you know, the better your headline. We know how that math works, and we know how business works and how intertwined it is with media. But honesty and truth and reporting and all of those things that we relied on in our media. I want to rely on it right now, and I want to ask media to take a breath, to pause, and to get verification before they start are changing the entire narrative and then try to backpedal on that, which is almost impossible to do. Yeah, exactly, it's impossible. Once you hear it, you can't unhear it, right, right, And it's already you know, there are gonna be people who will never believe that that's not true, right, And that's the unfortunate thing about it. And I said this on social media. I'm like this, you know, you can't play this game with something as serious as this, Like you could have started World War three with that, you know, because you know, there are people who who sincerely believe that Israel attacked a hospital. Yeah, and there are people who still believe that. And there are people now, even though the corrections are coming out now, there's people who still are who will never believe that that wasn't true. And those are the kind of things that I think hardens people's hearts and brings up the tension at a level that it doesn't need to be, especially right now. Susan, your thoughts really, we need to live lives where love is more important, where caring about people is more important, and terrorist organizations that's not a priority. Right. There is no goal toward a Palestinian state by slaughtering innocent Israeli civilians. There are other ways to negotiate, but not with terrorists. And right now we are front page news of a war between a country that's desperate for peace and a terrorist organization, and those two cannot be seen as equal partners in this war or any kind of parody or toward a goal toward peace, Like let's turn the story around, let's get rid of these terrorists, and then let's sit down and how to we rebuild both places. And I think there are partners that can make that happen. But it's not a terrorist organization, and it's not Iran, and it's not Isis right, right. I agree with Susan that you know, one of the talking points that the Jewish Federation has put out is fighting ignorance, that we need to engage in conversations with our friends, family, neighbors, and colleagues about Hamas and we cannot equate them as equal as the state of Israel. They are a terror organization charter says to destroy the Jews and to destroy Israel. We you know you can't. There's no moral equivalency to evil, you know. And thank god most people can't think like terrorists think. But we have to be able, the Jewish people in the State of Israel have to be able to defund themselves. And it's come time where you know, they need to do what they need to do to make sure that that the Israelis are safe. What's been so comforting to me is my non Jewish friends who have reached out, even people I haven't spoken to in a while, and just said I'm thinking about you. That means that means a lot, because you know, we know they care, and we know that it's important. They know that it's important to us. Yeah. Absolutely, I know it. You know it's been when it first happened, you know, it grieved me. It grieved me. It was very disturbing. I mean, the just the level of brutality, and and you know, I was having conversations with people, I said, you know, you put all of the political conversations and everything else aside for a second. Now I'm you know, I'm pro Israel. I make no bones about that. I'm pretty open about the fact that I'm pro Israel, but putting all of that aside, just the humanity. How can you sit there and see what they did to those innocent people and not feel it as a human being, you know what I mean? And that's it was just it was horrific. And I saw, you know a lot of the videos, the unedited ones that leaked on social media. It was horrible. It's absolutely horrible, and it's imprinted in people's minds. Once you see it, you can't get rid of it. I want to say, Darva that one of the things about that Michelle just said about non Jewish people reaching out to us is how I feel sitting here listening to you right now. People are going to expect us to talk about Jews are right on this podcast right now, But you're giving information that we haven't fed you because you are an ardent Zionist, And for that, I don't know how to tell you how much it means. I want us to be able to do more in the same way that you're giving me peace of mind right now to hear you be on here and say the things you're saying. It is it's a moment of existential fear for Jews, and we know that it was a single worst day for deaths for Jews since the Holocaust. But we say never again after the Holocaust, and now we just experienced what we thought never would happen. And since the days since Saturday, October seventh, it feels vulnerable in the United States. We feel scared in the United States because of this kind of polluted message has gotten out to people. And this morning on Chester on the case Western Reserve Dental School was graffiti. I can't read what all of it says, but what I can tell you is that it was police are all over it and they're removing it now. So it says something to the effect of collective punishment as a war end Israeli apartheid. It's scary. It is worrisome and scary. And Jews are being told to not walk around with if they wear headcoverings like a yamaka, not to wear that, and that if you wear a necklace that shows any indication of your religion, don't wear it. College campuses are terrifying for Jewish students right now, and so you doing this for us is it's a blessing. It is a blessing. Well, I appreciate that, and you know, I do think it's important that you stand with your friends. And your community has shown a willingness to stand with us, and so I think it's important to stand with you now. So before we close, for people who aren't familiar, tell people a little bit about what the Jewish Federation is and what it does. What we do is we raise money to protect Jews in Cleveland, in Ohio, in Israel and around the world. And the mission, it's always clear, never been more important. Absolutely all right, Michelle, I want to give you and Susan both the last word. We'll start with with you. Any anything you want people to know, anything you want people to hear, give you the last word. Michelle, starting with you. You know, I really want to thank you for giving us a voice. We're always stronger when we're together. You know, minorities need to work together. The Jewish Federation definitely make sure that we have relationships in the Cleveland area with all different minorities, and we have to we have to empower each other and support each other and in these times, and I just hope that you know, Susan and I have spoken about this before that you know there's no more loss of life, and that you know this this war quickly resolves itself. Susan. First, I want to say if anybody is inclined is looking for a way to donate financial support, that they can go to donate dot Jewish Cleveland dot org and that's a site with the Jewish Federation of Cleveland. All one hundred percent of that those dollars are going to help the needs in Israel as it relates to the war. And I want to say personally, for me and my family, we are all devastated. We are all walking around on edge, agitated, reaching out to our I have a sister and two sister in laws in Israel. I have people in the army that I love and that are in peril right now. And what I want to say is that the Jewish people in Israel are resilient. I don't know how or why, but they have come together and are supporting each other through this unheard of crisis like nothing you could imagine and that could ever happen there. And and my nephew who just traveled to the south of Israel because he was called back from for reserve duty. The streets were lined with people giving the soldiers, singing to them, giving them food, whatever they could do, baked goods, whatever they could do to kind of hug every soldier that was going somewhere that we honestly don't know if they're going to return. So I want to say the story is personal. When people talk about armies, they talk about it in this abstract way. When you are Jewish, and you are and you have relatives in Israel, the army are your relatives, those are those are my people. There's my they're my friend's children, they're my sister in law son, And it's it's it's not in the abstract. It's in the very very real danger of today and until this conflict resolves. So thank you for our time here with you, and I hope someone many someone's listening to this give pause to what they're hearing in the news right now and recognize that we are really looking for peace, and we are looking for peace with a partner and not a terrorist organization that will never happen. They are not looking for peace. Thank you so much for coming on the show and spend some time with us and talking about this is very important issue. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you, Stay tuned. We'll be right back after this. Welcome back. Make sure that you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you listen to the show on Apple, please make sure you leave us a five star review and a comment. It's very important for the algorithm and for those of you who've already done so, thank you, oh so very much. One more time, I want to send a special thank you to Michelle and Susan for coming on the show and talking about these horrific events and what's next and how where do we go from here and all those sorts of things. You know, I know that these issues, the overall issue, it's been very complicated in some people's minds. The political situation, you know, the Israeli Palestinian you know, it's it's very complicated, it's very complex. It's been going on for hundreds of years, even thousands of years, and it's people are very passionate on both sides of the issue. But to me, separating that out from the events that took place, how can we not be in agreement that that was horrific, that that was barbaric. I know many of you haven't seen the unedited videos, but some of you have. I've seen some of them, and it was unbelievably inhumane the way that those people were treated. And I think sometimes, especially here in America, politics becomes the be all, end all for everything, and we get so caught up in the politics of a particular situation that we lose our humanity. I have a problem with that. Regardless of what side you're on on the Israeli Palestinian issue, everybody should be able to condemn what happened that Saturday and the fact that there are people in this country making excuses for terrorists. It's disturbing to me. This is not about whether you care about Palestinians being killed or not. I think we should grieve when every innocent person loses their lives, but you can't say that this particular group is for the Palestinian people when they use their own people as human shields. We are in a place right now in this country where we are so divided on everything that we don't even understand or believe in the concept of shared ideals anymore. We don't agree on anything. We can't even agree that something that was horrific, was horrific. Putting aside the political conversation, can we just agree on that? There will be time to talk about where do we go from here? How do we get peace? Because that should be the goal, the goal for normal rational people should never be war. But how do we get to peace if we're not even willing to acknowledge the reality of what just took place? We have to understand that we have to be honest with ourselves. We have to stop dehumanizing innocent people because of politics. What did those babies have to do with a two state solution? What impact did they have on that? What could senior citizens do right now to bring peace in the Middle East something that hasn't been achieved in thousands of years? How does that work? So we have to lead with our humanity. We cannot forget. We can't just look at people and lose our humanity. There will be time, There will be a time to talk about all of the other issues that surround this. But I don't understand how anyone can look at the events of that Saturday and say that those innocent people deserved it, or that it was understandable or explainable because of a political situation that existed long before they were born, and they had nothing to do with it. I don't understand that. I don't I don't understand that that. It's hard for me to comprehend that level of depravity. So, speaking of humanity, I think it's important in times like this to remember our humanity and the things that are important to us. Those of you who are regular listeners of this show, you know that before the last segment of the show, there's always the sound of a child welcoming you back to the Outlaws. The voice that you hear is the voice of my godson, Gavin. Obviously we didn't open up this segment like that. It's been a different show altogether, this episode. But I want to close with that. I want to close with that because again, I want us to remember our humanity. I want us to remember what's important to us. Just like my godson and my other godson and my god daughter on the way are important to me, their sons and daughters and god sons and god daughters and grandsons and granddaughters were important to them as well. And I think sometimes we have to step back and remember what's important to us. So that's how we're going to close this show. We're going to close this show the way that we normally open this last segment with the voice of my god son. Once again, thank you to our guests, thank you to you for listening, and we'll see you next time. Peace, Welcome, Pat True, set outlock RAYO. This has been a presentation of the FCB podcast Network, where Real Talk lives. Visitors online at fcbpodcasts dot com.
