Ep. 419 - Outlaws Xtra: DigitalC CEO Joshua Edmonds talks about serving the community and defending the organization

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[00:01:21] All right, we have a very special guest on the show today. He is the CEO of Digital C, Josh Edmonds. Welcome back. How you doing, sir? Man, I'm well. How are you doing today? I'm all right, man. I'm all right. So a lot of stuff been going on. First of all, before we get into all of the festivities, first of all, how are you doing, man? Otherwise?

[00:01:46] Man, I'm solid. I'm all right. You know, to your point, there's a lot of stuff going on, but, you know, being able to just keep a clear head, staying rooted in faith and being able to show up for family, you know, that's what's been really important right now. So let's start here. First, before we kind of get into the nitty gritty, talk a little bit about the project itself,

[00:02:11] what you all, like the vision and what you all are trying to do for city residents. Let's start there. Yeah. So at its core, we're bridging the digital divide. You know, the digital divide wasn't just something that existed because of the pandemic. This existed beforehand. And in Cleveland, we've been one of the least connected cities in America. That designation was unfortunately given to us in 2014. And so since that time, it's been a decade of interventions.

[00:02:39] And so what we do at Digital C as a nonprofit, we're committed to bridging this digital divide, not just for some residents, for all residents. And how that materializes, we provide home Internet access throughout the city, $18 a month. And for the kids in the school district, it's free. We also provide training and we are headquartered at the Midtown Tech High.

[00:02:59] By 2027, we anticipate having 23,500 households taking our service at the $18 a month or even less from a price standpoint. And currently, our network coverage exceeds over 100,000 households. And we anticipate having the full city covered by June of this year.

[00:03:18] So talk a little bit about what makes kind of what you're doing at Digital C the initiative unique versus like some of the other Internet providers. Like talk a little bit about that. Yeah. So typically, an Internet provider, they're going to go to the areas they deem profitable first. So if you're going to contextualize this in Northeast Ohio terms, they're going to go to Lakewood. They're going to go to Solon.

[00:03:48] They're going to go to all the suburbs first, get their money. And then they eventually might come to Cleveland and they might build something that's comparative. However, what we're doing is we're starting in Cleveland. We started around Central and been building out from that approach. You don't typically have that happen where you would have an Internet provider go to Silicon Valley,

[00:04:13] take all of the advanced technology and then bring it back here and deploy it in Central, deployed in Buckeye Shaker, deployed in Glenville, deployed in Hup. That doesn't happen. And so we are reversing the way that we look at value. And this is a future investment. If you're going to give Internet access to people who historically haven't had a degree, which we're providing it, in addition, focusing on the kids, that's game changing.

[00:04:39] That does not happen, which is why historically we've been the least connected city, because someone didn't take the intentionality to build these relationships, to go on the ground and ensure that our residents in some of the most challenged conditions would have the best technology. What we have historically had as residents in the most challenging conditions have the most challenging Internet circumstances. And so now that we are leveling that playing field, I think that we're just incredibly optimistic about what the future looks like for Cleveland,

[00:05:07] specifically Clevelanders who have kids in the public school district. We're talking with Josh Admin, CEO of Digital C. And now let's get to the ish.

[00:05:17] Josh Admin, CEO of Digital C.

[00:05:46] Yeah, so we had three goals that we primarily needed to focus on last year in 2024. So the first one was training. So from a training standpoint, again, we provide digital literacy and skilling training to residents. It's a complementary piece of bridging the digital divide, and it's free. And we had to train 7,500 residents last year. We trained 7,622. I believe that's the number that we reported.

[00:06:15] So exceeded the first goal. And that means we had the contract sign up. I mean, we shout out to LaDonna on our team who just led a phenomenal effort. Second one was coverage. We started building our network in January of 2024. And within one year's time, we had exceeded the goal that we reported, which was 75,000 homes covered. I believe by the end of the year last year, we had 83,000 homes covered.

[00:06:43] So amidst permitting challenges and delays, like we still exceeded that goal. And then on the third one, we said that we were going to connect 3,500 households in 2024 to our Internet. We connected 2,802 homes to our Internet. Now we are above our 3,000 thresholds currently. But again, they are just measuring from January of 2024 to December of 2024.

[00:07:06] So let's talk about, you mentioned the challenges with some of the permitting issues that you've had. And I know you and I had a conversation about that offline as well. And I was actually kind of surprised because I didn't know that that was another hurdle to have to deal with.

[00:07:27] So talk a little bit about the issues that you had with the permitting, when you were supposed to get it versus when you got it, and the impact that you saw in terms of sign-ups after you received the permitting. So Cleveland is a city of relationships. And the more relationships we're able to build, the more successful we essentially can become.

[00:07:55] And that is absolutely reinforced through home Internet. And so we were told, and I mean, this is public from city council, the chairman had continuously lifted up that in order for us to do this work, to knock on doors, we needed to have a permit. So in 2023, summer of 2023, I believe July of 2023, to be more specific, we applied for a permit to do the door knocking.

[00:08:20] We didn't get an approved permit until September of 2024. Wow. So it went over a year for us. We didn't have a permit. Now, it was brought up again in the beginning of 2024 because we had a hearing at that time as well. And it got brought up again. Hey, you know, you guys need this permit and we can be helpful.

[00:08:46] So the expectation was that we'd have a permit in short order and, you know, we'd be able to attack the summer. Yeah. Because as you know, in this city, it's a seasonal city. In the summertime, people are outside. They're grilling. Yeah. It would have been so nice to be able to walk up on someone's porch and say, hey, I see that you're outside playing cards right now. I just wanted to drop this off with you. I'm Joshua, by the way. And this is, well, we didn't get that interaction. Right. We didn't get that.

[00:09:15] And as a result of, you know, us getting that permit approved, we saw like 150% increase in our subscriber number. Because, again, we're able to knock on doors. We're able to build relationships. People can see us. They can see that we're not a scammy company. And the reason why it's important that that happened in 2024 was because, as you know, that was an election year. And so with 2024 being an election year, with all this stuff that's going around, like we needed a way to authentically engage in community.

[00:09:45] And we weren't able to do so until we had the permit, which, again, happened in September for a contract that started in January. And for people who may not know, like if you're going into a lot of these, the type of neighborhoods that you're going into, these are majority black neighborhoods. And we are very suspicious of everything. Yes. Very much so. So they have to see you.

[00:10:13] They have to be able to look you in the eye and talk to you and then, you know, determine whether they want to get your service or not. That's right. That's very important for our community because we are suspicious of everything, understandably so. So one more time, when you had the permits, talk about the increase that you saw. Let's dig into that. Yeah.

[00:10:40] So, like I said, a 150% increase in the growth of our subscribers and what that looked like on the ground. I mean, word of mouth is by far our biggest way for residents to figure out who we are. Yeah. And so when we're knocking on doors, you know, it was a nice young man or a nice young lady who I'm out there knocking on doors with our team. Like, it's not like I'm so removed. Like, no, I'm out there, too. My face is on some of that collateral.

[00:11:06] So as we're passing this stuff out to people, you're seeing trust being built in a way that then they're telling their grandmother. Then they're telling their auntie. They're telling, okay, we might be in Glenville or Fairfax because I know we for sure knocked on Fairfax last year, too, right afterwards. So while we're knocking on doors in Fairfax, so-and-so might be calling someone who might live in Althwaite or Carver Park. And now we have this chain reaction.

[00:11:34] And so the chain reaction happened when people saw who we were, we built that relationship. And then, again, a 150% increase simply off of our permit being signed. Yeah, there's no way around that for people who may not be aware. Like, in our community, that is very important. That being able to reach out and touch, that's very, very important. There's no way around that. So in that last quarter, we did more in that last quarter than pretty much we did all year. See what I'm saying? As it relates to subscribers.

[00:12:04] And so it's like the power and the permitting, I mean, we can't understate that enough. And so the fact that we were able to have the incredibly successful quarter we had, like, we're thankful for it. We just wish that it would have came a lot earlier. Yeah. Because then those factors would have obviously given us the ability to hit a completely different number than we did. Exactly. And if you understand culturally, you understand the importance of being able to have those permits.

[00:12:30] So another thing, too, is that you guys have raised $30 million, over $30 million in outside funds. To support this. How does that compare to the city's investment? And talk a little bit about what that says about the confidence that the other funders have in the work that you're doing. Yeah. So, you know, I have to give the biggest shout out to the Mandel Myers Foundations of Cleveland. The Jewish Federation of Cleveland, I should say.

[00:12:58] They've been really, really supportive of us, even through all of the interesting media articles. And, you know, they gave $20 million to support us. And we received a $10 million investment from the state of Ohio. So, you know, real big shout out to Governor DeWine and the folks over at Broadband Ohio. And a $3 million earmark from Congresswoman Chantel Brown. So those are our outside funding sources.

[00:13:26] And that's essentially what's done everything thus far. That's built the network. That's connected people. The school district has been subsidizing services at $25 a month for residents. And so we have all those people and all these great stories. And then it comes to the city's investment. So all the work that we've done to date, none of that money has came from the city at all. And so I think it's worth mentioning that, like, the work has already been done. Yeah. It's continuously getting done as well.

[00:13:56] And so the city, their money, that's the $20 million. So we brought more money than, you know, what the city had available for this contract. And on this side, the $20 million is really meant to be, in many cases, like a reimbursement. So it's like, if we've already done this work, we're essentially getting reimbursed for what work that was done. And so the confidence that we have from our funders, I mean, it's beautiful to see.

[00:14:24] It's beautiful that people are willing to stand with us and say, this is disruptive. We're here to support it. We see the way it's changing lives for Clevelanders. And we believe in Digital C. Having them say stuff like that, that motivates us to keep going. And when things aren't the easiest, when things do get tough, knowing that our funders are, and funders and friends are still standing with us and still pushing us to go deeper into this fight against the digital divide, I think that's a beautiful testament to a number of things.

[00:14:50] But I'll probably boil it down to just our great team we have here at Digital C. Welcome back to the Outlaw Players. We're talking with Josh Edmonds, who's the CEO of Digital C. And let's go to some of the, as we both kind of alluded to, the reports that have been out there.

[00:15:20] Part of it has been reports on the hearings that you have with city council. So essentially, city council penalized you for not hitting the target without mentioning that the main reason is you didn't have the permitting when you needed it. And it ended up basically being a $1 million penalty against Digital C.

[00:15:45] So talk about how that impacts your mission. And what message do you think that sends to the community when you're out here trying to do this work? Well, and you know, it's interesting because I saw one of the headlines like Digital C loses a million dollars or something like that. And I wanted to say, no, no, no, no, no, no. Cleveland residents lost a million dollars because that's what this money is going to.

[00:16:13] The work is going for installs. It's going for the labor that then could bring an internet connection to someone's house. It doesn't take 18. It takes way more than $18 to connect someone to the internet. Our internet might be priced at $18. But all the labor that we do, we pay union labor fees. So it's like we're paying union labor fees already, prevailing wages, to then do the work. But in addition to that, as I said before, we went to Silicon Valley to get this technology. So it's not cheap.

[00:16:41] So by the end of the day, when you take a million dollars allegedly from Digital C, it's like, no, you're taking a million dollars from home internet connections for families in Cleveland. That's where the million dollars came from. And so when we look at that, that is a direct attack on our mission. Our mission is to bridge the digital divide for good, meaning we are eradicating this. We're not here to manage it. We're not here to piecemeal. We're not here to take some money off the top and try and figure out. No, this money was earmarked to bridge the digital divide, period, point blank.

[00:17:10] So now what we've done is we've created a situation where we are now going to manage the digital divide instead of eradicating it. Every dollar counts, every second counts, and every connection counts. And if we're willing to move things around for any of those, then we need to reassess our approach towards what we actually want as a city. Do you want to bridge this digital divide? Then prove it. But if you want to address it, then you're proving it.

[00:17:35] The other point, the other side of this question too, the message that I believe it sends is, one, if we're going to do this with Digital C, then we better do this across the board to everybody. Anyone who ever gets a dime or a dollar from the city, then let's make sure that we're doing it this way across the board. And, again, despite whatever is being communicated or whatever is being said, I just want this across the board.

[00:18:04] And there was, in a subsequent hearing, someone brought up that it felt like it was targeting a digital C. And the response was, well, digital C has a past and whatever. And I'm like, okay, hold on. Time out. Digital C, this is our 10-year anniversary. In 10 years, you mean to tell me that we're going to have a full-fledged citywide network that's built?

[00:18:30] You're going to have residents who've never had internet connections now being connected. Families who didn't have internet and there wasn't a way and they're having this. And somehow someone saying our past is in question? Well, there were some things where you guys over-promised and under-delivered. I will say this, and I'm glad the opportunity to get this story straight. No city has bridged the digital divide. No one. Everyone has failed.

[00:18:57] And so the fact that right now, digital C, there's not another infrastructure like it right now. You can't go to Baltimore and see this. You can't go to Philly. You can't go to Detroit. You can't go to Memphis. It doesn't matter what big city you name. You are not going to see another digital C. So by the same token of all the failures we have, you can tell a lot by a city or by a person, by their relationship to failure. Because those who learn from failure and improve, that's success.

[00:19:26] But somehow throwing off that digital C in the past might have failed on things, that doesn't make us unsuccessful. That's what makes us successful. Because we did the things wrong, and we've learned, and we've improved, and now we're in the position to say, no, we got it right. That's how this works. And so for people to throw our past against us as if that's something wrong, that's where I'm like, no, we're telling the wrong story.

[00:19:48] Well, and also, like, you are, in your way, addressing a part of issues that have plagued our community and this city for decades. For decades. We are all trying to do everything we can to address these issues and to finally fix these problems.

[00:20:13] The issue, and I've heard you talk about it before, of digital redlining, that's another form of redlining, which is something we've been dealing with for like 100 years. That's right. You know what I mean? So I find that very interesting. I find that perspective very interesting. Oh, well, you didn't fix this issue or that issue. Nobody has. Nobody. Nobody. And, I mean, there's not like there's a precedent that's set. Correct.

[00:20:41] It's like, oh, well, all the telecom companies that we've worked with who bridged the digital divide have done it in one year. So why haven't? It's like, no, this is single-handedly the most successful intervention on the digital divide that Cleveland has ever seen. Ever. Like, that is it. This is the most successful one. So, again, our attitude towards this right now, Mike, what is influencing or who is influencing what's coming out? Because there's no way you're going to look at this and say, this company went from zero.

[00:21:11] And in their first year, they connected this many people. They overperformed on the majority of the goals. And yet the standard now is penalization. Like, that's the standard for this when they overperform. And then in spite of this, in spite of that, we didn't predict that we were going to have a tornado that was going to do the damage that it did. The last time we had a tornado that did any damage like that in the city was in the 50s. Right. So it's like, were we supposed to predict that that was going to happen? I hope not.

[00:21:41] I hope that's not the standard. So, also, how long have you been CEO of Digital C? So, became CEO November of 2022. Okay. So I think, also, in my view, the most important thing is dealing with what you all are doing now. That's correct.

[00:22:02] So, I think it's unfair, and this is just me editorializing here, I think it's unfair to make you answer for things that you had nothing to do with. The only thing that you can be held accountable for is your own record. That's right. That's right. That's all we ever ask for. Anybody can ever ask for, is to be held accountable for their own record.

[00:22:25] And so, to me, in my view, the thing that matters the most is what Digital C has been doing since you got here. That's right. Because you are the CEO today. That's right. That's right. Yeah. I love that you're looking that up. I mean, there's been times where I've been asked questions about stuff that happened in 2008. Right. I'm still in high school at that time. Right.

[00:22:50] I'm like, guys, I don't, at some point, we have to focus on the future. We are a future-focused company. There's a reason why you keep hearing us indexing the kids. Because it's like, man, get these babies the technology that they need to compete. So, when we're bringing up stuff from 2008, 2009, 2010, I'm like, what do you all want me to say? I'm learning algebra at that time. Right. I mean, there is no way.

[00:23:18] So, being able to have a conversation about from November 2022 and beyond, judge us on that. Judge us on how we went from not having a network built at all that within one year, we were able to get over 80,000 homes covered. And today, we have over 100,000 homes covered. That's right. Judge us on things like, okay, this year, we're already on track to train more than 10,000 residents. 10,000.

[00:23:44] And these are numbers that somehow when we say them in any other context, we're lauding them as so successful. But as soon as it becomes to us, it's like, well, you're supposed to do that. Like, okay, well then show me that standard of work across the board in all of Cleveland. And then I'll stop talking. Right. But if we're the only ones who are really knocking out the part, I shouldn't say the only ones because there's a lot of great partners who are doing a lot of great work in Cleveland. But if we're doing that work at that level, then and you are appreciating those other ones, well, then show some love to Digital C too.

[00:24:14] Right. Right. Absolutely. We're talking with Josh Edmonds, CEO of Digital C, and we have a few minutes left. But one thing I wanted to talk about, especially because you mentioned the kids, is the mind-boggling fact that you're basically being penalized also in addition to the $1 million penalty.

[00:24:36] The tax, if you will, that's coming from, like you said, it's not being money taken out of Digital C, it's being money taken away from the residents. So it's essentially a tax, an additional internet tax on the residents. In addition to that, you're getting penalized for signing up CMSD families.

[00:24:58] It doesn't count towards the goal that the city set, which is absurd to me. Talk a little bit about that. And also, you mentioned it briefly. Talk about why it's important that Cleveland's children in particular get access to the internet. I didn't think we'd have to have this conversation after going through COVID, but apparently people must have forgotten already. Oh, man.

[00:25:29] So, yes, we were penalized for the CMSD numbers. We had submitted them, and we're connecting these families. Like I said, we're bringing out ladders, trucks, equipment, engineering to get these houses connected. So we do all that work to connect them. CMSD says, you know what? These are our families. These families, for $25 a month, will pay for their internet bill.

[00:25:57] So the internet bill is completely separate from the actual deployment standpoint. So all that money that goes into deployment, all the backhaul network equipment, all that stuff. We built that stuff. And then to have someone say, well, that doesn't count. It's like, wait a second. Hold on. These families, in a lot of cases, they didn't have home internet beforehand. So that kid was not being, when they go home, there's no internet connection for them to do their homework.

[00:26:24] There's no internet connection for that family to check that kid's performance in class because we have the applications now. So it's like we're not having that stuff. So it's like we did that stuff in good faith to say, all right, this is our future. We want to make sure that more than anything that they're covered, a city like, you can tell a lot about a city's trajectory by looking at the way that they're treating their future. So if you're saying that the future essentially over here doesn't count, what is the bigger message that's being sent? And I think that's the stuff where it's like we need to be thinking about it that way.

[00:26:53] But again, the decision was made that all the work that we did to connect those households, all the relationships we built with the school district families, a product that they can trust, that's something that's finally working to empower them and their families. Well, it was voted that it didn't count. And so we were a little bit confused because they fit the criteria. Per the contract, they fit the criteria. Yet we were penalized and we still don't have a clear answer.

[00:27:18] But what DigitalC is going to do moving forward, we're committed to connecting these CMSD families because, again, that's our mission. We're committed to bridging the digital divide for good. And specifically as a company that is focused on the future, we know that these Internet connections are pivotal for our families to not just compete today but also tomorrow. And so we're not taking a backseat on this. We're going to continuously connect these CMSD families. And if we need to have more conversations about why that's important for people, well, then we're willing to do that as well.

[00:27:47] And so also there was part of your answer in there that kind of made me think about this here. So you mentioned earlier that there's no city, no other city has anything like what DigitalC is doing. And we know that the digital divide is not just in Cleveland.

[00:28:09] It's across the board, particularly in minority cities, minority communities, minority neighborhoods, et cetera. So given the challenges that you all are facing, particularly politically, how do you think the situation that you're dealing with will impact future efforts to close the digital divide, both on a local level and on a national level?

[00:28:37] I think that we are in an age, obviously, with the presidential administration where they are looking at government efficiency and attacking, in many cases, social service delivery. What we are is the evolution of social service delivery. In many cases, this is digital social work.

[00:28:56] This is what you would want to see happening, that instead of 20 people knocking on a single door, you now have a connection that goes into this household that has an information pathway that we now can communicate efficiently with our residents. You would want that to happen. You'd want to build something to say, all right, Cleveland, we typically don't lead efforts like this. We're typically not known for being the most innovative one in the room. We have that right now.

[00:29:22] And so to all these other cities, they're asking us, they're throwing RFPs at us to say, hey, would you want to do this? Would you want to expand? Would you want to expand? And so when we're looking at this stuff in Cleveland, we're like, why are we being treated this way when we're the ones winning? We are winning. We can go to any telecom conference in the United States. We can bring up digital C. Everybody knows $18 a month. Everybody knows what we're doing here. But as soon as we have this local political conversation, it's discounting all the things that we build.

[00:29:51] And it's muddying the waters that don't need to be muddy. It's like lean into what we're doing. Let's do it better. Let's get everybody connected. But let's stop trying to pick apart and dissect innovation. That's not how this works. Innovation is meant to be fast. It's meant to be destructive. But people are trying to slow it down and tack on and pull this and pull that. That's not the environment that sustains this type of work. And so what I believe is going to happen in the future when people look at digital divide efforts,

[00:30:20] I think that you're going to have some partners who are going to be like, no thanks. Because I see what you all did over here. And who wants to work in that standard? That if you're willing to do everything and go above and beyond, and even things are outside of your control, you're still going to be penalized for, why would anyone want to work in that environment or that condition? Right. So last couple of questions here. One, since you guys have been dealing with all of this, dealing with the issues with the council,

[00:30:50] also the media reports, many of which have been inaccurate and unfair, how are you guys, how is the staff doing? How are you keeping your spirits up and still continuing to do this work in spite of opposition? You know, our team is a team of fighters. It's a team of fighters in here. There are people who are legitimately angry, but anger is kinetic if you let it be.

[00:31:19] So like if you're able to transfer this to action, that's where they are. We had meetings, we said at the beginning of the year, y'all, they're coming for us. I think that there are certain actors that are not reflected here who are influencing opinions strongly, and I think that those actors would have a unique business case for us not to exist. And so when we see that type of influence, our team is ready.

[00:31:48] We're locked up together. We're saying, no, we're willing to weather this storm. One of the most beautiful things that I've seen is the way that the residents of Cleveland have been supporting us. Cleveland residents who have now been coming out saying in their testimonials and their reviews, hey, keep your head up, Digital C. We believe in you. Way to go, CEO. Like stuff like that, that gives me goosebumps because I'm seeing the power of community organizing. I'm seeing that now you have residents who are defending us.

[00:32:17] And to have these residents continuously grow, when those articles were coming out in January, every single day slot we had for our internet was booked because people started saying, no, you're not going to mess with Digital C. And we, the residents, we, the people of Cleveland. And so it's really cool seeing the juxtaposition or at least the different points

[00:32:39] where what's being said by some people versus what the actual story is happening on the ground, the way that residents are lining up to support us. That is beautiful. And, you know, for anyone who's on the other side of us, you're not standing next to residents because the residents are standing with us. And that's evidenced by the way that they've been signing up, the way they've been reviewing our service, and the way they've just been communicating to others.

[00:33:04] Again, word of mouth is our single-handedly, the greatest metric that we have for customer growth. And that has outpaced every intervention we've had. The people are talking and the people are supporting Digital C. And so to close here, if there's one thing that you want the public and city leaders in particular to understand about Digital C, the work you're doing, the importance of that work,

[00:33:33] what would it be? What's the one thing that you would want them to do? What's the one takeaway you want them to have from this? I would want people to assess their stances, assess their position, that would you want to be, what side of history do you want to be on? Because history is being made regardless. Residents are getting empowered regardless. There are people who are having their trajectories and their generational trajectories change as a result of having access to information.

[00:33:59] This is a time period that we've known where great wealth is being able to be created and that's tied to access to information. And so people should assess their position of where they're standing, assess the words that they're saying, because it's going to be etched. And it will be etched. And we're going to remember where people were. And I think that people would want to say that when history is being made, that they were on the right side of it. Let everybody know how to get in contact with you, if they want to sign up and all that good stuff.

[00:34:26] Yep. So first, please call us at 216-777-3859. I did not give you a 1-800 number. That is our 216-777-3859. In addition, they can go to www.digitalc.org. That's our website. Or you can come to the Midtown Tech High, 69th and Euclid, and we can sign you up there as well. All right. Thank you so much, man, for coming back on. We really appreciate it. I appreciate it as well.

[00:34:54] This has been a presentation of the FCB Podcast Network, where real talk lives. Visit us online at fcbpodcasts.com.