Nearly 5 years later, with Keefe D's murder trial reaching its final stages in Las Vegas, that conversation is more relevant than ever. Go back with us and hear what Greg Kading told The Outlaws years before the Tupac murder case finally reached a courtroom.
This is the FCB Podcast Network. Welcome to the Outlaws. This is Darvio the King Penamara alongside Robin O'Malley. Don't forget to like us on Facebook at Facebook.com slash The Outlaws Radio. Follow us on X and Instagram at The Outlaws Radio. Glad to be back. It's been a little minute. It's been a lot going on. But Ms. O'Malley, how are you? It's definitely been a lot going on with you. Yeah, life, life, life. Life be life, Sam. I swear that I need to have a t-shirt that say that like at this point I need to go and you know but yeah life is life and it's not life and too bad but you know it has its ups and downs school is back in session school is back in session I found a really great school for my son finally He absolutely loves that they have like construction there and culinary and all kinds of other stuff there that they they help build the kid, the students credits pretty fast. And if the kid gets a job and they go to work on time, no fall offs, et cetera, that counts towards their credits. Oh, wow. And also with their like culinary, whatever they decide, they can once they graduate, get. brought on to the company and become like a professional cook or in construction of such. That's dope. I absolutely, absolutely love this school. My son, the only thing he does not like is they do not have school transportation. So he's got a walk, a little walk. You know, luckily he's young. Right, right, right. He got them young legs. He's got a walk. He's got a little walk, but I absolutely love his school. And then my baby, unfortunately, we are back at the same school that she was in last year. For now. I'm not happy about that. For now. But at least now, guys, she can defend herself. Like, she can do, you know, she can defend herself. That Muay Thai kickboxing can pay off. That's good. As long as she don't use it as a weapon now, though. She'll be picking on people. No, nope. Only if they attack her. But, you know, we'll see how that goes. We'll see how that goes. She's been riding her bike to and from, so she's cool. I know you went to a couple concerts, too. Oh, my God. What was the most recent one you went to? LMA. And shout out to her because, listen, her concert was like. The most bare minimum of all of them. And I don't know. I feel like hers was my most favorite one. I love LMA. I absolutely love LMA. I was singing my heart out. To every song. Wow. I went to Chris Brown and Usher, Kehlani, Evanescence, LMA, and I took my daughter to her first concert in Detroit, Michigan to My Chemical Romance. How was that? That was pretty dope. I'm not usually into rock and all that, you know, headbanging and whatnot, but the bass, definitely you felt it all through you. It was pretty dope. Their effects that they had going was awesome. I recorded her. She told me, Mom, stop recording me. Stop taking pictures. But I'm like, girl, I just spent all this money. I'm going to take all the pictures I want. Like, hello. But it was an eventful summer. Yes. How are you, Darvio? How's it been? You know. It's been eventful as well. Just a lot going on. Just a lot of stuff. I'm going to focus on the positive right now because there's negative and positive. But one, things are going really well with the radio station. For those of you who don't know, we have a new radio station starting in April. It's actually... airing one of our stations that started in 2024. FCB Faith is on 107.3 HD2 locally in Northeast Ohio. So check that out. Also, you can hear it on FCBFaith.com as well. It's a really good station. So that's going really well. Also, I just came back from out of town as well. I went to see my uncle today. who was technically my great uncle, but you know, we black, so we don't say. Great or great, great. Like that's just my uncle. Right. So, um, my uncle is 90 years old and he just beat cancer. So, uh, which was amazing. He got to ring the bell and everything. So we all, uh, you know, me and several members of my family, you know, drove up to go see him and, you know, spend a little bit of time with him and stuff. And that was really good. That was a really good experience. That was really good to kind of, you know, catch up with my family and really just, you know, embrace that, that culture of my family that is like, reminds me of how I grew up. So, so it was really dope. And I'm also obviously very happy to, about him being able to beat cancer, especially at 90 years old. My family has lost a lot of people to cancer over the years. And so, you know, I'm grateful that, you know, the last few people that have gotten it have all beat it. You know, when my grandmother passed, my grandmother was a matriarch of our family. And, you know, my mother believed that You know, well, and my grandmother had told my mother. So it wasn't just that my mother believed it. My grandmother told my mother that she wanted to be the one to break that curse off of our family. And, you know, ever since, you know, anybody who has gotten cancer has beaten it. And so so I'm very grateful to God for that. And I mean, 90 years old, beaten cancer, man, that's pretty that's pretty remarkable. You know what I mean? Amen. Amen. Amen. Honestly, first of all, congratulations to him. That is amazing. That takes a lot of strength, especially at his age. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, man. So I'm grateful. I'm grateful that we get some more time with him. You know what I mean? I'm very grateful. So there's been something in the news that's been dominating the news to some degree. that we are going to go into our archives because we have an interview that's relevant to the situation. Robin, do you remember when we interviewed Greg Kading, who was the Los Angeles detective who was involved in solving the Biggie and Tupac murders? I do remember that very much so. Oh, I remember that. Yeah. So, I mean, it was an incredible interview. And, um, basically, uh, Kifi D who's on trial right now for the Tupac murder, uh, was one of four people who were in the car. He wasn't the shooter, but he was one of the people that was in the car when they shot Tupac. Um, three of the four who were in the car dead. He's the last living person that was in the car. Um, also, um, he, uh, as Greg explained to us, he had originally done what was called a proffer agreement, which basically said under the auspices of this agreement, whatever he said, he confessed to, he can confess to anything and whatever he said wouldn't be used against him. And, um, he did that thinking he has fuel, full immunity, but he didn't. Um, So after that, he proceeds to do interviews. He was on Vlad TV. He was on BET, um, talking about the murder and talking about his role in it. And when you go public like that, that wasn't covered under the agreement. So therefore he ended up being charged with murder. Um, so essentially he told on himself. Um, By wanting fame, wanting to be famous, wanting that attention, wanting that money that came with that, he told on himself. And so right now, he is on trial for that murder. So anybody who knows me knows that I am a diehard Tupac fan. Tupac is my goat, the greatest rapper of all time for me. It had a lot of impact on my childhood. So I obviously took a keen interest in this. And I thought about the interview that we did with Greg Kading, which was excellent. There was so much detail in there that I think is important to kind of revisit, especially because it's in the news right now. So what we're going to do is we're going to take a quick break now. And when we come back, we're going to air the Greg Kading interview as we recorded it. So stay tuned. You're listening to The Outlaws. Yeah, this is. Chris Gotti, and you're listening to the number one radio show, The Outlaws. You heard me? Adventure Music supports Chris Gotti. Go check him out. Real talk, real conversations. We got the heat. Give me the real. Hell yeah. This is the Outlaws Radio Show. Welcome back, welcome back. You're listening to the Outlaws. Now let's get into this throwback interview with Greg Kading. All right, we have a very special guest on the show today. He is formerly... of the LAPD. He worked on both the Tupac and Biggie murder cases. And obviously with the recent anniversary of the shooting of Tupac in Vegas, I thought this would be a perfect time to have this conversation. Greg Kading, welcome to the show. How are you doing, sir? I am doing great. I am doing great. Thanks for having me. Appreciate that. Awesome. Awesome. So Let's just start at the very beginning. First, tell us a little bit about how you ended up on the Biggie case, because I know you ended up on the Biggie case first. And then as you were working on that, you saw that the two cases were connected. So talk about how you ended up on that case, on the Biggie case. So I ended up getting assigned to work the Biggie case. I kind of got recruited as part of a team to work it. And it was a result of the lawsuit that was being waged against the city of Los Angeles, where Allegations were being made not only of alleging that we were involved in the murder, but also covering up the murder. And that lawsuit was being waged by Valetta Wallace and Faith Evans and their estate. And so the case had gone cold at this point. And it was 2006 when I got the phone call to go and reinvestigate the case as a result of this lawsuit. And the lawsuit had been filed in 2002. So it had been kind of working in and out of the courts for four years already by the time I got there. And so me and a group of other LAPD detectives all started to take a fresh look at it. And then the decision was made to expand that task force to incorporate investigators from other agencies that could bring other resources to bear. So that was the, the thought process and the strategy was just to get a big comprehensive, you know, reinvestigation of the, of the, of the cold case. All right. So, and in these, in, in the, these issues, we're going to start from how the issues began and then kind of get to what happened and, and, and who did what. So obviously there were two tracks that were the issues that should night CEO of Death Row Records had with Sean Combs, CEO of Bad Boy, and then also the issues that Tupac ended up having with Biggie and Bad Boy, even though they were friends prior to the Quad shooting in 1994. So first, what happened with Suge and Puffy? Because if I'm not mistaken, they were friendly too at the beginning. What was the root of of their issues. So from what I understand, they were cool. Of course, they're both operating on their, you know, in their different areas. And then, and this is, this is, I heard this from Reggie Wright Jr. So I'm assuming this to be accurate, but you know, I don't know this for sure, but there was a request by should night to have Biggie perform at a nightclub in, las vegas and um bad boy or you know puffy was cool with it originally but he wanted half the door he's like yeah cool i'll have let my artist there but i want half the profits from the door and i think this kind of pushed push should back a little bit and this is the first time from what i understand that there was a little bit of friction that grew out of that thing it wasn't that you know should just wanted to hire biggie say hey you're just a hired talent you perform and then you know, move on, go on your way. But, you know, for Puffy's like, no, I'm going to do more than that. I want half the door and half the take. So I think that that was the beginning of the riff. But of course then, you know, it really gets bad when they go to Atlanta and should nights out there at a nightclub along with his bodyguard and then Puffy's out there with some of his people, including Anthony Jones. And there's a confrontation inside the club. that leads to a shooting outside the club where allegedly Anthony Wolf Jones had shot and killed Shug's bodyguard, Jake Robles. And so now you've got blood on the ground and it's gone from just a war of words and hostilities to an actual killing. And just for people who don't know, tell us who, anthony wolf jones is in relation to to puffy i know that they were very very close. Yeah really close in the same way that jay robles was close with suge it was like a right hand man like you're you know your your right hand guy that's with you he's gonna he's always gonna have your back um he's gonna take whatever hit he has to for you and so that was for you know from what i understand what uh anthony jones was to puffy much like jake robles was to to shug really close friends but also took more of a kind of uh you know that kind of a bodyguard type of role. And just to put a button on that wolf is uh deceased now correct. Yeah he died i think he died in an unrelated shooting on the east coast um he was never prosecuted for the shooting of jay robles because they were never able to make that case um Jay Robles, I think, survived for almost two weeks after the shooting in Atlanta before he died as a result of gunshot wounds. So no, nobody was ever prosecuted, but both those two gentlemen are dead. And so on the Tupac side, obviously the issues really bubbled up with the Quad shooting in 1994 in New York. And one of the misnomers, and we'll probably play a clip of Tupac Sanders. One of the misnomers is that people thought that Tupac believed that Biggie and Puffy set him up. But what he said in his own words is actually a clip of an interview that he did with Sway and King Tech that's on YouTube now that he believed they knew about it and didn't warn him. Because some of the people that Tupac was associated with at the time And Biggie, according to Tupac, Biggie had warned him about this one, one of the particular guys, I believe he's been deported, Haitian Jack. And, you know, Tupac asked him, well, what's the problem? And according to Tupac, Biggie said, I'll talk to you later. And he said they never talked. And that was and after that was when he got shot. So in his words, so he knew they knew what happened. So talk a little bit about. the quad incident and how that led to the exacerbation of the hostility. Right. So all of the, the way that you just explained it is the way I also understand it. Tupac was supposed to show up at the studio and do some background vocals. I think on a guy named little Sean's yes. Little Sean's either video or song, whatever it was to be. And he wanted the money up front. And there was a guy named Jimmy Henchman that was involved in orchestrating and coordinating this thing. And Henchman was a little bit put off and Tupac was being a little bit demanding. Like, you know, we've asked you to go over there. Don't worry about it. You'll get paid for free to demand the money up front to kind of be out of place, at least from a street perspective, you know, like, Hey, you know, I think the idea is kind of like, Hey, mind your manners, man, you know, And, uh, which is one of the reasons I think that they disciplined him in the, in the lobby, um, was as a sending a message like, Hey, listen, it's the rap artist, you know, we're gonna pay you but uh you need to kind of know your place around here and so that's the way i understand it so they approached him in the lobby and robbed him pistol whipped him and he tried to get his gun out of his waistband and ended up shooting himself and uh going to the hospital um but he was obviously upset because he believed that the guys that were upstairs, i.e. Biggie and Puffy, and some of the other guys from Bad Boy, knew what happened, were aware of who it was, and weren't really doing anything to kind of come to his aid or to identify them. But, of course, you can look at it from their perspective. They're like, these are some real cats. We're not going to go out there and start pointing fingers at them, because then we're going to have the same problem you do. Now, on the... And on the shooting, there's been some controversy as to whether we know he was shot a total of five times. There's been a question as to whether one of those shots he shot himself when he reached for his gun, or if that was just one of the shots that came from the other guys. From your understanding, what happened? We know four of the shots came from them. But from your understanding, that fifth shot, I believe it was the groin shot, did he shoot himself or was he shot a fifth time by then? So the way I understand it, from looking at the reports and hearing some of the statements being made by some of the investigators and looking at some of the hospital stuff, he was pistol whipped severely about the head. So, of course, he had pretty serious lacerations on his head, but they weren't gunshot wounds. And then he had a cut on his hand, obviously, that was a pretty good deep cut, but that was from the slide of his own gun coming back and catching the webbing of his, of his hand. And then the bullets that's traveling down from his own gun goes in a leg through his, through his privates and then into the other leg. And I can tell you from personal firsthand experience, I've shot a guy one time and made five bullet holes in it. I shot him in his ass. It came out his inner thigh, went through his scrotum on both sides and then into the other leg. So it's not unusual to have multiple gunshot holes from a single gunshot. Okay. And so that's what I believe happened in the heat of that exchange when he's getting hit and robbed and he's trying to get his own gun out. He mishandles his weapon, fires it, makes multiple holes in his lower body, and then is also severely pistol whipped. But I do not believe he was shot outside of his own gun. Okay. Okay. We're talking with Greg Kading and Dante. I know you have a question. Go ahead, sir. Hey, Greg. So what was the real relationship or the nature of the relationship between say Puffy and Big and the people who did what they did to Tupac in the lobby? These were all kind of street relationships. The henchmen, you know, Jimmy Henchman, James Roseman, you know, who was involved in the record industry to a certain degree kind of you know, a producer, had his own label, but he's also a street guy, as was obviously Haitian Jack, was an extortionist and a robber and, you know, running around in these circles that, you know, creating all kinds of havoc with people against each other. And then, of course, Puffy's trying to make a name for himself. This is back in 94 with Bad Boy and getting up and running with what would ultimately become his empire. So these are all just street relationships from from New York. And there was, you know, these kind of superficial record label connections. Gotcha. Would you say then that they were Puffy's goons or would you go that far? No, I wouldn't personally. No, I wouldn't say that because I've never seen any evidence to support that. And just to put a button on this part, Jimmy Henchman is currently in prison, correct? For federal narcotics violations, yes. He's in prison and has been in prison for, I don't know, over five years, I think. And actually, if I'm not mistaken, in New York, he had what they call a queen for a day. And that was when he finally admitted to his involvement with the 1994 shooting, correct? Correct. And that was corroborated by another guy who's also in prison, who admitted to being the one that was actually involved in the pistol whipping of Tupac, who actually was there and part of that whole robbery and confrontation, who also tells the same story as Henchman does. OK, we're talking with Greg Kading. So now let's fast forward. Tupac ends up in jail. Talk about where the relationship between Tupac and should begin. So that happens after Tupac is incarcerated for the sexual assault conviction that he suffered as a result of meeting this girl and ends up having a sexual relationship with this girl. She alleges that Tupac and others had forced sex on her against her will. And so they all go to trial. Tupac gets convicted as a result of that. And Haitian Jack was involved in this too, correct? Correct. Haitian Jack was involved in that incident also. So he's in prison out there in New York. I think he's at Rikers Island or was he at Dannemora? He was at Clinton Correctional. Was he at Clinton? And of course, he's under Interscope at that time. Interscope thinks that there would be a good marriage between Tupac and Death Row. And of course, Interscope's got a relationship with Suge. And so they kind of all agree that we should go out and see if we can get Tupac on Death Row. And of course, he's got to postpone while his appeal is being fought. And so Suge puts up the bond money. They get him out. And in exchange, Tupac is supposed to do three albums for Death Row in return for the favor. And that becomes the relationship with Tupac and Death Row Records and Suge Knight. And so, if I'm not mistaken, I believe, and I know the Tupac biopic All Eyes on Me had the timeline like this, but obviously a Tollywood, so there could be liberties taken, but... If I'm not mistaken, the Jake Robles shooting happened before Tupac was bailed out of prison. Is that correct? Yes. The quad shooting happened before that. The Jake Robles thing happened before that. And the sexual assault all happened prior to Tupac coming out to Los Angeles and signing up with death row. It was 94, 95. And then it's, you know, late 95, 92. Yeah. Yeah. Mid 90s. Yeah. When he comes out. Late 95, early 96. Yep. So at this point, by the time he gets out of prison, the war between the two labels is pretty much full on. Yeah. Like I said, it got really heated after Jake Robles was shot in Atlanta. And then there's the war of words going on and the, you know, the diss tracks and all of that. And then the backstage confrontations at award shows and then should take in the stage and kind of dissing Puffy in front of, you know, in Puffy's own backyard. So it's just kind of this conflict that is fueling itself in several different ways. So as this conflict is continuing to fuel itself and get worse and worse and worse, what is... Puffy's perspective and standpoint on this? What does he do to try to protect himself when he comes to LA? So originally, I think Puffy didn't really want, he saw things were getting out of control. I don't think Puffy really wanted this confrontation to continue. And from what I understand, he had sent an emissary out. from the Nation of Islam, somebody from the camp of Farrakhan, and try to meet with Suge and kind of squash this beef because it was getting out of control. And I think everybody could see the writing on the wall. And I think that Puffy didn't want to be held responsible for the murder of Jake Robles. And so I think that Puffy really kind of wanted to see if he could patch things up or at least learn to live amicably um with death row um but i don't understand that suge really wasn't trying to accept that and uh then things got even worse obviously when puffy found out that suge had um basically kidnapped a guy in the effort to try to figure out where puffy's family lived out here in la so now puffy's that if he's in L.A., he's got a target on his back. Suge's going to great extremes to try to locate Puffy when he's out here. And so now Puffy's really, really concerned about coming to Los Angeles. And they're both trying to encroach on each other's territory because Puffy wants to do a bad boy west. Suge's out in New York trying to do a bad boy, I'm sorry, a death row East. So now these labels are actually trying to encroach on each other's territories in the industry. So it's all kinds of levels of conflict and drama going on. So in that environment, talk about where Puffy's alleged relationship with kifi d begins and and tell people who kifi d. Is okay so during this period of time um puffy is you know righteously concerned about coming to la and worrying about what might happen if he comes out here so he goes to somebody that he has a relationship a new york drug dealer by the name eric martin equine williams is an alias of his he also goes by the name of zip He's a Harlem dope dealer and he's a Harlem nightclub owner. Zip and Puffy are very close because Zip had been friends with Puffy's dad. In fact, Zip is Christopher Wallace's godfather, Biggie's godfather. So he goes to this guy Zip who has this ongoing drug relationship with a guy named Keefy D from Compton. Keefy D out here in Compton is a shot caller and leader of a crip gang called the Southside Crips and Keefy D is able to procure kilos, and large amounts of PCP, which he then provides to Zip on the East Coast. So Kifidi is Zip's drug source from the West Coast. And so Puffy goes to Zip, says, hey, you got hookups out there, people that can be around, kind of shield us from Suge Knight and his goon squad. Who are these cats out there? Can they provide us a certain level of protection when we're out there. So that's how Kifidi and Puffy get connected, is through this common mutual friend named Zip. And Kifidi also knows Shug, correct? Kifidi's known Shug since he was a kid. They played football together, went to school together, and even though they're from different neighborhoods in Compton, they know each other from childhood. So, there's a relationship that begins with Puffy and Keefy D in the Southside Crips through Eric Zipmark. So, in order... Now, before we can get to Vegas, we have to talk about what happened at the mall before that with Trayvon. And in order to get to that, we have to talk about the rumor... that there was a bounty on death row chains. Is that something that you heard as well? Yes, it is a well-known rumor. I don't, it's never been completely substantiated. You know, Puffy's obviously never come forward and said, yeah, I put a bounty on these death row medallions, but that was the street understanding. That was what guys on the street from both Southside Crips and from the Ma Pai Ru believed to be true. This rumor is something that they believe to be true. And so that is what led to the confrontation at the Lakewood Mall, where a guy from the Southside Crips, who's actually Kipidi's nephew, Orlando Anderson and some of his Crip friends, sees Trayvon Lane, who is a friend of Suge Knight's, a member of the Mob Piru, an employee of Death Row Records. They see him and he's wearing his medallion. So they go over there and they all get into a Donnybrook. They all get into a gang fight. And they attempt to steal Trayvon's chain with his medallion on it. There's two stories. One is that they actually got it. Kifidi claims that they got that chain and he saw it when they brought it home. And then, of course, Trayvon's version of the events is like that. They tried to steal it, but they never got it. So we don't know what actually took place because there's two versions of that story. OK, so I'm trying to place the timeline here and we'll get back to. We'll get back to the medallion part in a second. This is about three months prior to the September shooting of Tupac, so earlier in the summer. Okay. So prior to that, maybe within these three months, there was some sort of conversation between Puffy and Keefy D, if I'm not mistaking, that Keefy D and interprets as essentially a solicitation is that correct. Correct it it that is actually correct and it happened during uh while kifidi and his um gang associates were providing this kind of street security um for bad boy records when they were doing a concert tour i don't know if it was a bet tour or something that was with jodeci and some of these other I'm sorry, some of these other artists, they're in Anaheim and San Diego and Las Vegas and Los Angeles during this tour. And it was during that period of time, according to Keefy D, that Puffy first approached him and said, hey, you got to help me get these guys out of the way because, you know, I'm walking around looking over my shoulder all the time. And Keefy D took that to mean what? Kifidi took that to me like, hey, you want us to do what we do, which is, you know, basically go to war with these guys and get them out of the way. Make it so that it's not a problem anymore. And was there a financial offer on the table? According to Kifidi, there was. But it wasn't like this, you know, we're going to drop a contract and here's the money that you're going to offer. It's just guys talking. And Puffy's afraid and he's talking out of desperation. And Kifidi says, yeah, we wanted a million dollars. Puffy essentially says like, whatever, just don't let anything happen to me. You know, go out and do what you got to do and I'll pay you whichever you're asking for. But this is this desperate talk from Puffy Combs. I don't know if he completely understood what he was saying or really meant it, but it was just desperate fear talking. And so I give Huffy a bit of a pass on that because I don't know that he was seriously like, okay, listen, guys, I will give you a million dollars. Go out and kill these motherfuckers. I don't think it was that direct. Right. But from some interviews that I've seen with Keefie Deed, Keefie Deed took it to be that direct. Is that correct? Well, yeah, because it serves his purpose because they do go out and they do shoot and kill Tupac and basically... almost kill suge and so of course he's going to interpret it that way because he wants the. Money more with greg kating when we come back here on the outlaws yo what's up bring the noise right here chuck the public enemy number one you are tuned in the outlaws. Radio show. This is the Outlaws Radio Show. Welcome back to the Outlaws. We'll jump right back into our interview with Greg Kading. So let's get to, we're talking with Greg Kading, and let's get to the incident in Vegas. Now, before the shooting, there is a fight. Tell us what led up to the fight after the Tyson fight. Okay, so all of these guys, these South Central cats, go to Vegas all the time. They are huge fans. fight fans, and particularly Mike Tyson fight fans. Shug would have been going for years. The Crips had been going for years. A lot of gangsters from LA had been going for years. And Mike Tyson and Tupac are friends. Awesome. Tyson and Tupac are friends. Zip and Tyson are friends. You can go online and find pictures of Tyson with Zip. And so it's a small circle of people. And so you've got these East Coast guys out here that are going to support Mike Tyson. And then you have these fans of Mike Tyson from Compton that including death row records. Um, they're all out there and, um, Keith and his nephew scalped some tickets or they buy some tickets off somebody. And, uh, but they have to go their separate ways during the fight because the tickets aren't next to each other. And of course it was a really quick fight. They weren't in the arena for very long because Mike, Mike Tyson knocked out his opponent so quickly. Um, and then everybody's flooding out of the arena. During that period of time, of course, if you've been to the MGM, it's large and there's a lot of places to kind of wander around. And Orlando Anderson is loitering around trying to hook up with the rest of his crew, including his uncle Keefy D. Well, lo and behold, Pac's coming out with a guy named Trayvon Lane, who was the one who had his necklace stolen at the Lakewood Mall. And Trayvon sees Orlando Anderson, recognizes him. These guys have been at odds for a long time. Says, yo, whoa, you know, Pac should be on guard. That mother that tried to steal my chain at the mall. There's the guy that stole my chain at the mall. We don't know exactly what Trayvon said, but whatever he said, it prompted Tupac to then run across the lobby and sucker punch Orlando Anderson. And then, of course, the rest of the Bloods that were in part of that entourage, the Mob Pyrus, they go and start stomping on Orlando Anderson also. And, of course, the whole thing's caught on MGM security cameras. So after that, they leave. And then what happens? So they leave and... Of course, Suge and Tupac and their whole entourage go over to Suge's house in Vegas and get ready for a night at the club. Suge's trying to get this club open called Club 662. He's trying to get the liquor license and the gaming license and all of that approved. So it's a very important night. Everything has to go right because they don't want anything to interfere with this application to get their gaming license and their liquor license. And so Tupac's supposed to perform that night there and draw in a crowd. And of course, Mike Tyson's going to make an appearance and it's going to be a big deal. Well, everyone in town knew about it. So now Kifidi and Orlando Anderson know exactly where to go if they want to get even for the beatdown that just took place. So Kifidi runs into Zip, who's also at the MGM. Zip's with some New Yorkers. And Kifidi explains, or Zip's aware of the fact that Orlando Anderson just been beat down. And he offers like, yo, do you need any help with this thing? And Kifidi says, no, man, we're good. We can handle it, but we don't have any heat out here. So Zip says, well, come with me to my car. He walks out to his car. He's got a trap, which is a secret compartment in the car. And he pulls out the Glock 40 caliber gun that he ends up handing to Kifidi, which is ultimately used to kill Tupac. He gives Kifidi a gun. And then Kifidi and his crip friends go on the hunt. They're in two different cars. They're in a white Cadillac that's rented. It's rented by the mother-in-law, the guy named Terrence Brown, who happens to be the driver of the Cadillac that night. So South side crib. And then a van that contains about five or six other guys, including Kiffy D's brother, Kevin. They all go on the hunt. They go to club six, six, two, which is where Tupac and Suge and the rest of the mob Piru were supposed to be holding this party. They get there. And according to Kiffy, they're there for an hour. According to Mob James, they're there for a very short period of time, at which time both Mob James notices, yo, there's these crip guys that are in the neighborhood just kind of posting up. What's going on here? Plus, there's Las Vegas Metropolitan Police officers present at that place doing traffic controls. There's cops there. There's rival gang members. And Kifidi and his crew is like, OK, this is not the place to get down like this. Let's go. So they leave. They go to a liquor store. At that point in time, according to Keefy D, the guys in the van kind of rank out. They're like, man, listen, we came to Vegas to party. This isn't what we're down for right now. Keefy D gets pissed at them, jumps out of the van, and gets in the white Cadillac with three other guys, including his nephew, Orlando Anderson, who's been beat down earlier. And the van goes its way. The white Cadillac goes on its way. And just lo and behold, as they're driving down the road, Here comes the caravan with Suge and Tupac and the rest of the mob, Hyrule and the bodyguards and the outlaws, all these people on their way to club six, six, two Tupac screaming out the window. Girls are screaming Tupac, Tupac, and it gets the attention of the Crips. They put, you know, they just bang a U-turn and now they're in a position to, to shoot. So they pull up alongside the caravan. They're looking into the cars. They finally find the BMW that Tupac's in. TPD goes to hand the gun to the back seat. The passenger, I'm sorry, the passenger behind the driver, which is on Tupac's side of the car says, no, thank you. His name is DeAndre Smith. This ain't my beef. Orlando takes the gun, leans over Dre, leans out the window and just starts popping. And, uh, this is history. Right. So after that, um, Two years later, what happens to Orlando? Two years later, 1998, Orlando Anderson is at a hamburger stand outside across the street from a gas station. I'm sorry, from a car wash in Compton. He sees a couple of guys. There's some drug debt, evidently, that existed between these guys with DeAndre Smith and Orlando. Orlando's with a guy that day named Michael Jarreau. call him little owl and so they go over there to collect this drug debt these two guys the stones pull out guns orlando has a gun they all start blasting orlando shoots and kills two of the guys in return they shoot and kill orlando and michael derose kind of last man standing and according to california um according to california law it's called the california murder rule If you're involved in a crime and people die, you get held responsible for those deaths. And so Michael Durow got charged with all three deaths, Orlando Anderson and both Stone brothers. And so Michael Robin, I'm sorry, Michael Durow is doing a life in prison. Orlando Anderson gets shot and killed at the scene. And before we move on to Biggie, and then we're going to go to how you was able to, how you were able to get all this information in the first place. what happened to the other people that were in the car? Keefy D is the only one that's still alive, correct? Correct. So Orlando Anderson, who was the shooter, he dies in 98 in the incident that I just described. Terrence Brown dies not so long ago, maybe four or five years ago. He's inside of a marijuana dispensary in Compton and it gets robbed. And during the robbery, Terrence Brown, who was the driver of the white Cadillac in Las Vegas. He gets shot and killed during a robbery. And then DeAndre Smith, who was in the back seat, ended up dying of basically natural causes. He was obese and had a bunch of health issues. So he died of natural causes. We're talking with Greg Kading and Dante go right ahead. Greg, would you say in a way then that the way Tupac ended up getting killed, some of his own actions with the Orlando Anderson, with them jumping Orlando Anderson. But did this kind of just boil down to a Bloods versus Crips thing at the end of the day? At the end of the day, both of these murders were gang-related drive-bys. They involved gang members. They were gang actions. It just made it a little bit, you know, gave it a little bit of a uniqueness because of the celebrity aspect of it. but ultimately they were gang-related murders. Now, let's fast forward six months later, six months after Tupac's murder, to the Biggie incident in LA. Now, let me ask you first, just your expert opinion. If you were advising Puffy and Biggie at that time, or part of their security team at that time, would you have advised them to kind of stay away from la that it might have been too soon to come back out. There absolutely yeah i think they had a false sense of security because you know suge was in jail tupac was dead six months had passed by and they thought okay everything should be okay you know that there's no more you know um clear and present danger um but i think they just didn't fully appreciate how the streets out here work and the vendetta that uh that was in you know the the uh the vendetta that was at hand. So, yeah, I mean, it was a bad decision. Even Eugene Deal, during his police interview originally, he says, man, we all knew something was going to happen. We knew that when we went to LA, they were coming for us because of what happened in Las Vegas. He had his own bodyguard basically saying it was on. If I'm not mistaken, he was actually told by some people that was connected to the streets in LA that they had a problem being back out there in March. Yeah, that's what I understand is one of his newer revelations is that wasn't something that he mentioned back at the time, but who knows? Okay. Regardless, he knew. That's the important point is that Eugene Deal was aware of the fact that there was this present hostility and that they were in enemy territory. So now with the Tupac shooting, it was kind of we have kind of heard the name. Most people have kind of heard the name Orlando Anderson, you know, as connected to it pretty much right around the time it happened. You know, I remember when he when he was killed in 1998, you know, VT did a report and they said he was the suspected shooter of Tupac. So that's been kind of clear to most. People. I don't think the backstory and the connections in terms of the relationship that they had with Bad Boy has been well known until your investigation was released. But really, the one that people really didn't know a lot about at all was who was behind the Biggie shooting. So tell us who was behind the murder of Biggie. Okay. Well, I can tell you this when the, when Biggie was murdered, almost all the focus was on the South side Crips clues were coming in that they had been involved in Biggie's murder. Clues were coming in that there was an, you know, an uncollected debt that bad boy owed the South side Crips and that the murder was a retaliation for that unpaid debt. So a lot of focus was on the Southside Crips as the suspects in Biggie's murder originally. And we knew that the Southside Crips had been at the Peterson Auto Museum that night, including Orlando Anderson and his uncle, Keefy D. So we were like, okay, you've got evidently motive and the ability. So that was originally one of the strongest theories. But then the other theory was, no, this was Suge Knight retaliating for the murder in Las Vegas for Tupac's murder. And that made a lot of sense too. There's also sound motive for that. So those were the two prevailing theories. And then through, you know, an investigative effort of trying to exhaust different leads, things began to narrow more and more on the, on the Suge Knight theory as the most light or most probable of the, of the different theories. And so that was it. You know, we started to kind of grind it out, grind it out. And, um, again, the case had kind of grown cold since 1996, 1997, both of those cases have been cold. And now it's 2006, 2007, 10 years had gone by and we had to try to figure out how to, um, not reinvent the wheel, but how to figure out how to, create some new leads and create some new opportunities to solve it. So that's what we did. So let's go there. We're talking with Greg Cady, who was the detective on the Biggie and Tupac murders. So what was your process? What did you do to get to the bottom of what happened with Biggie and also what happened? So investigatively, you keep an open mind. You try to be as objective as possible. You don't care what the outcome is. You only care that the outcome is true. And so you have to entertain all of these different theories and track down every lead and exhaust them. But once you can, through a process of elimination, exhaust leads, then your focus becomes narrower and narrower and And that's all we wanted to do. We wanted to get rid of all of the noise, so to speak, and just focus on the leads and the evidence that could be substantiated. And that was our goal as a task force was just like, hey, let's see if we can sift through all of the muck and mire that has infected the case over the years and figure out what's at the root of this thing. So what did you discover? in the Biggie case specifically? Well, we had strong beliefs that Suge had solicited it. There were a lot of clues coming in to support that. We didn't know who the shooter was, but there was some kind of interesting stuff coming in. A guy named Little Rod, who was in prison at the time, was writing letters to a ex-Death Row bodyguard named Kevin Hackey. In those letters, this you know, inmate is saying, Hey, I know Poochie did this. He's the one who killed Biggie. So this is the first time that Poochie has actually been accused, um, by somebody of being involved in the murder. And then, um, we also are aware that there's this female associative showed who's actually more than an associate. She's one of his baby mamas, um, whose name is Teresa Swan. That's an alias that we'd given her. Um, that she was involved in all kinds of white collar crimes with Suge. She's involved in bankruptcy fraud with him, fraudulent applications for the liquor license up in Las Vegas that I mentioned earlier, a bunch of vehicle fraud. She had a bunch of cases of perjury where she had lied to get false IDs. And so we're like, okay, this person is somebody who's complicit in crimes with Suge. Maybe she might know something. And then we're also keeping in mind that We know that Shug's got this hitter that has done other shootings for Shug by the name of Poochie. And his name's coming up in a letter from somebody who's in a position to kind of know that it would be. So we kind of put all these things together and formulated this theory. And then we built a case against this female so that we could approach her and compel her to cooperate. So we basically went in, did a search warrant at her house, And had her in a position where we were going to prosecute her, which meant also that she would lose her children to foster care or at least lose her children while she went to prison. And so we put her into a corner and said, here's what we believe. Here's what we think. And she says, well, actually, you guys are kind of right. This theory that you're working on is I was there. I was involved. And here's the story. And so she then spills. She confesses to her her role. in the solicitation to have Biggie murdered. And the story is that she, after Suge Knight went to jail for his involvement in the beatdown of Orlando Anderson in Las Vegas, where he has his probation violated, he's in jail. He wants to retaliate, but he can't communicate because he knows jail phones are all tapped and that you can't really be sending out letters. And so you've got to figure out a way to get a message to somebody and he uses her. So she goes in under the guise of being a legal attendant for his lawyer, David Kenner. It's a very smart thing to do because when you go in and you have your legal visits, those can't be monitored. You have privileged communications, not only with your lawyer, but people that are representing your lawyer, like a legal aid. So now no deputies can listen to the conversation. They can't overhear it. So now you can have private, secured communications. And this is what she says happens. I went. I met with Suge on multiple occasions. Suge tells me to get ahold of Poochie, says, you know, this is what he wants done. And here's the amount of money that I'm willing to, you know, to pay or ask Poochie. I'm sorry. It was ask Poochie what he needs in return for doing this. So she meets with Poochie. Poochie says he needs this much money. She goes back again, meets with Suge. They set up some way of getting the money and everything's set in motion. And she says that she actually went to the Peterson there that night. She said she didn't witness the shooting. But she was there and was aware that Biggie was there. And the next thing she knows, the plan had come to fruition. And Biggie gets shot and killed as he's leaving outside. And for people who don't know, tell us who is Poochie. Poochie is a gang member. Very, very fine pictures online of Poochie with Suge. He was a gang member who was known. He's wanted multiple murders. And he was just a very serious street guy that would do that type of thing. And everybody in the neighborhood, you know, all the mob pyro and everybody was aware of who Pucci was. Very dangerous guy involved in shootings with other blood gang members. And, you know, he murdered somebody out San Bernardino County. And so he was the kind of guy that wouldn't hesitate to pick a gun and use it if there was something to gain through that. And what happened to Pucci? Pucci in 2002, again, like I said, he'd been involved in these other gang shootings. there was a lot of infighting going on. Some of these blood gangs in Compton, the mob Piru and the fruit town Piru. And there's a bunch of shootings and murders taking place. You know, within this conflict, Poochie was right in the middle of that. And so Poochie was driving his motorcycle up central Avenue in 2002. And a car pulled up behind him and the semi-automatic machine gun and shoots him in the back 10 times and kills him. So now, by the time you get the case, Biggie's shooter is dead and Tupac's shooter is dead. That's correct. Stay tuned. We'll be back with more here on The Outlaws. The Outlaws Radio Show on the FCB Radio Network. Welcome back to The Outlaws. Don't forget to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you listen to the show on Apple, please make sure that you leave us a five-star review and a comment. It's very important for the algorithm. And for those of you who've already done that, thank you oh so very much. And now we'll get back to our interview with Greg Cade. So so you told us how you were able to get the information from Teresa Swan. Now let's go back to Kifi D. But before we do that, there's been reports and I'm not sure if it's true or not. So maybe you can clear this up for me. Was there a conversation after the Tupac shooting where Puffy asked, was that us? According to Kifidi, yes, the very next day when Kifidi and Zip together are in Los Angeles, Zip had called Kifidi and says, yo, we got to meet. We need to talk. So they go to a hot wings place on Melrose Avenue and meet up. And while they're there, Puffy calls Zip and says, was that us? Was that us? And Zip's like, yeah, that was us. And according to Kifidi, he ends up with the phone, Zip's phone. And he's on the phone now with Puffy and Puffy is also asking KVD, yo, was that us? Referring to the shooting of Tupac the night before. And of course, KVD says, yeah, that was us. And is it true that there was some sort of payment that never made it back to KVD and the Southside Crips? Well, again, there's recently been somebody on Vlad TV, I think it is. I can't remember the name of the guest on there that was a roommate of Zip's who affirms that there was a payment made to Zip from Puffy that was supposed to be forwarded to Kifi D. And according to Kifi D, two different individuals had approached him and said, yo, you know that money? Zip got that. Puffy had given Zip $ 500, 000 to give to you. But of course, Zip being the street hustler that he is, decided to pocket it. And so, you know, of course, these guys are living on opposite sides of the country. Keefy D ends up going to jail not too long after that for a narcotics case. And now he's kind of put away and out of sight, out of mind. But according to Keefy D, two different people, one being Darius Rogers, a guy named D-Mac, who was a close friend of Puffy's, told Keefy, you owe that money. that got paid. You just didn't get it. So these, these are the stories, um, whether they're true or not, you've got to kind of draw your own conclusions. Okay. Cause you, you, you've never been able to independently corroborate that. No. Okay. Nope. Um, so also what happened to zip is zip still alive today or is he gone as well? Zip is gone as well. He died of cancer and, uh, When we were actually trying to further this case, I had coordinated it with our task force. Once Kifidi confessed and we said, all right, well, in addition to your confession, we're also going to ask you to help us further the investigation. So we flew him out to New York and used him as an informant. So we positioned him to be in a place where he could meet up with Zip and hopefully reestablish their relationship. and then start making some calls, which we could then solicit information from. So we took Kifidi out to New York and, uh, he went to the zip code, which is the nightclub owned by zip. And, uh, and he's able to meet with zip and zip tells him, listen, I'm sick. If you want to do any business with me, go through my nephew. I'm just not there right now. I'm not, you know, so we weren't really able to do anything with that at the time. Um, because zip was struggling with his health and we weren't able to do what we wanted. You know, we just didn't meet our objectives on that. And then he ends up dying of cancer. So, um, how were you able to get, uh, the confession from QPD? So we built up a Really strong drug case against him. He was involved. I mentioned earlier selling kilos of Coke and gallons of PCP. So we were using our own informants to buy drugs from him. So we call these controlled buys. So we bought a couple of kilos. We bought a gallon of PCP. But just that gallon of PCP alone is enough to charge him with what we call minimum mandatory sentencing. If he gets convicted, it's a minimum of 20 years just for that gallon of PCP. And so we're working with the U S attorney, the DEA doing all this thing by the book. And we finally get to the point where like, we have him over a barrel. We've got Kifi D dead to rights. So let's go and approach him, tell him what we have and see if he wants to sit down with us. So my partner and I go to his house out in Corona and we, You know, he walks out, we confront him in his driveway. We sit in his garage and we're like, here's the deal, man. We've been listening to your phones. We've been intercepting your dope. We've been buying dope from you. We have you. We want to talk to you. What do you want to talk about? Get your attorney, meet us down at the U.S. attorney's office if you want to cooperate with us. So later that afternoon, his attorney calls our attorney and says, listen, we know, you know, we understand QVD's got a case pending. We'd like to come down and sit down and talk about it. So that got the ball rolling. So once the lawyers agree that we're going to do with the Queen Fred Day thing, like you mentioned earlier, we call it a proffer session. And Kifidi is able to sit down and disclose incriminating details about what he's done without us using those statements against him. It doesn't give him immunity. It just means that his own self-incriminating statements can't be used against him. But other evidence can be used against him. So he realized like, dude, I'm going to prison if I don't cooperate. I'm going to prison forever, basically, if I don't cooperate. So he sits down and we ask him, you know, there's a strong theory that you guys had something to do with Biggie. Nah, man, that one wasn't us. That one, that wasn't us. That was Shug. But I can tell you about Tupac. And of course that then discloses the whole story about his involvement with getting the gun from Zip, giving the gun to his nephew. being in the car, going to the 662, shooting and killing Tupac and just lays out the whole story. We're talking with Greg Kading and this sounds pretty much like a buttoned up, well put together case that solves both of these murders. How come there hasn't been anyone brought to justice? So time obviously didn't work in our favor because now it's 1999 when we're getting these confessions. Most of the witnesses and co-conspirators are dead. The problem with the Biggie case is that you've got a he said, she said thing. You've got one girl. You know, you've got a small conspiracy at this point that we know of, which is the female, Suge, and the shooter. Shooter's dead. female. She ends up getting immunity for her cooperation. And now in court, you've got a female, a baby mama of Suge saying, Suge solicited this murder. Well, there's a huge problem with trying to prosecute Suge just based on the testimony of this female. She's got this long history of fraud. She's got four different driver's licenses that are all signed under penalty of perjury. So the first thing that's going to happen is it defense attorney is going to go, uh, don't you lie all the time? Oh yeah. I mean, haven't you just been lying for years, like bankruptcy fraud and licensing fraud and driver's license? I mean, you just lie about everything, right? She's forced to say, yeah, pretty much. Why should we believe you here today? So you don't have a very strong case. And KFED is not much better. I mean, KFED basically have him testifying against himself and pointing a finger at Puffy, who's going to bring the best lawyer's money can buy against a gang member who's lied in the past, who's a drug dealer. So neither of these are particularly strong cases in court. Right. So you mentioned that you got on this as a result of a task force that the LAPD put together, which that came from as a reaction to the Valetta Wallace lawsuit. As you bring all of this information together, you have, you know, exactly what happened to Tupac, exactly what happened to Biggie, and you bring this back to the LAPD, what do they then, what decision do they then make as far as whether to further the case or to let it go? Well, obviously the attorneys that are representing the city in this lawsuit who are absolutely adamantly not going to settle with Valetta Wallace and the plaintiffs on the case. You know, this went from potentially a $ 400 million lawsuit to a $ 80 million lawsuit to a $ 20 million lawsuit. And at the end, they were just like looking for scrap. They were like, we'll settle for $ 2 million. And the city of LA was like, no, we are not willing to pay you a dime because we were happy to go to court. and face these allegations because we can refute them all. Your witnesses are sh * *. So the LAPD is super confident in their case. Well, then we come along going, hey, by the way, we've got the real story over here. And the real story is that this small conspiracy with Suge, Pucci, and Teresa is the story. And then we have a testifying co-conspirator. So that is then related to Valetta Wallace's attorneys. Well, now they know they're dead in the water. And so they just decide, hey, we've got to retract our lawsuit. We're not going to throw any more good money after bad. It doesn't make any sense to pursue this anymore. It's been nine years or eight years since they've been pursuing this and to no avail. And so they dropped the lawsuit. Now, once the lawsuit's dropped, the city of LA is like, man, we're done. dismissing the, you know, the case is almost unprosecutable. We've spent a lot of time and energy defending ourselves and pursuing the answers. And so everybody kind of just goes back to work on the other cases that they have stacking up and that's where it's left. It's super, super unfortunate. Yeah. I don't understand that because as a matter of justice, Wouldn't you at least like these cases are technically still considered to be unsolved. I agree with you a hundred percent. And it doesn't sit well with me either, but this is this really kind of no win situation. So the LAPD with the information they now have go to the district attorney's office and say, here, this is the, this is the evidence we have. The district attorney's office says, I'm not going to attempt to prosecute Suge Knight based on, the testimony of this proven liar. And then we're just not going to trial on something that is that, that is that we don't have any confidence in winning. So that's just the unfortunate reality of this. And then of course, Las Vegas has their own problems because what are they going to do? Put Kifidi on a stand against himself or against Puffy? No, you don't want to do that. So the best thing that you can do in both of these cases is is to acknowledge that these are the facts, that you recognize that these, through all this investigative effort, that this is the demonstrable truth behind these murders, and you clear them. You don't let them be unsolved because they're not unsolved. They're just unprosecuted. And I think both of these cases deserve that. So why won't the LAPD do that? Even if they can't prosecute anybody, just officially solve and close the case. So the LAPD, for Vegas, absolutely. I concur 100%. Vegas just ought to arrest Keith Eaddy, take the case to the DA's office. The DA is going to say, we're not prosecuting this, but you've arrested him and now you clear the case. It's clean and simple. With Biggie's case, it's a little bit more problematic because of the conspiracy theories that are out there and the public image that has been kind of marred because of these allegations against the LAPD. So now if the LAPD comes out and clears the case, are you opening up a can of worms? I don't know. I think it's the right thing to do. But I think the LAPD is in a little bit different situation because of the allegations in the past against them than Las Vegas is. Because nobody's ever said, hey, Las Vegas killed Tupac Shakur and covered it up. They don't have those kind of nuanced issues that the LAPD does in trying to clear the case. But I don't disagree with you. I think both of these are solved and they should be acknowledged as solved and then set history in place so that these aren't questions 20 years from now. And as we wind down here, we've got a couple of more questions. We're going to revisit the LAPD angle in just a second, but I wanted to touch briefly on the Vegas PD. Now, you said that you gave Kifidi a proffer agreement, which was not immunity. And the proffer agreement was just that he could not be prosecuted by any incriminating statements that he made to you, correct? 100%. Okay. Now, he's done at least five interviews since that, where he has openly admitted to his involvement in the shootings. Are those statements prosecutable? Absolutely. They are absolutely not protected by our proffer agreement. The only statements that are protected by our proffer agreement is when he sat down with us. Anything he says outside of that are his own self-incriminating statements. So the DA in Las Vegas would be asked, OK, are you going to put Kifidi on the stand? Put him on the stand. He pleads the fifth. So you've got Kifidi is basically the sole defendant. in this case, where he's also the sole witness. Put him on the stand, he pleads the fifth. And then all you can do is take these statements that he's said publicly and use those to impeach him. Say, well, here's what you've said. And now ask a jury or a judge to say, is it enough to prove his guilt? I kind of think it is. But I'm not a DA that has to shoulder that burden. I mean, he was on BET. He went on BET and admitted his involvement. In this case. You will not get any argument from me, bro, at all. I'm with you. So in your opinion, why do you think that Vegas has not pursued this? When he's been on BET, he was on Vlad TV, he was on Capone News, he's been on multiple different outlets. admitting that some variation, he changes it up a little bit here and there, but essentially that what you're saying is accurate. Again, this is a question they should be forced to answer. They need to answer this question. It's not for me to answer. I have an opinion on it, obviously, and I've expressed that. But this is something they have to answer. They have to be forced to to do business with this reality and, and not be allowed to just kind of sit back and ignore it in my opinion. And, you know, and I'm law enforcement friendly, I'm a retired cop. I believe, you know, that, that, you know, we, uh, we face a lot of challenges in law enforcement, but I think that accountability is one of the things that we have to be very, um, uh, you know, um, We have to be very, very, very transparent about. More to come with Greg Kitting when we come back here on The Outlaws. Welcome back to The Outlaws. Don't forget to subscribe. Like us on Facebook at Facebook.com slash The Outlaws Radio. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at The Outlaws Radio. And now for the conclusion of our interview with Greg King. So let's go back to the LAPD because we didn't talk about this particular side of it. So the Valetta Wallace lawsuit was essentially saying that the LAPD either had something to do with the murder or with covering it up. And that was based on a theory from the original cop that was on the case, correct? That is correct. One of the originals. There were quite a few early investigators. He was one of them. And he developed a theory. And that theory was based on the statements of a jailhouse informant named Michael Robinson. Michael Robinson was an informant that was in county jail. And he cooked up this story. about who killed Biggie. Even though he was in jail and even though he was admitting this was all hearsay information, he mentions a name and he mentions five names. And he describes this so-called shooter that he's heard about and that he says he knows, by the way. And he says his name is Kenny or Kiki or Abraham or Ashmir or Amir. He has five different names. Well, I'm sorry, months and months, months later, a bank robbery takes place in Los Angeles where a dirty LAPD cop named David Mack robbed a bank. After the bank robbery, he's caught, thrown in jail. And while he's in jail, he gets a visit from an old college roommate whose Muslim name is Amir Mohammed. And so this detective is like, huh, Amir, that sounds familiar. Didn't some jailhouse informant tell us about a guy named Amir? And he starts to develop this theory about this Amir Mohammed guy who was a friend of this dirty LAPD cop named David Mack. And so that spawns into this massive theory that captures the public attention, becomes the fodder for a book, and becomes the basis of this lawsuit. Well, ultimately, that informant who suffered from severe bipolarism and his marital essentially very discredited, he discredits himself, essentially, because he gets everything about Amir Mohammed wrong. He can't even identify him from a six-pack, even though he says he's known him for 20 years. He can't even pick out the right photo. And then he ultimately says, listen, I made all So the whole thing should have just died right there. But because it captured so much momentum and so many people were feeding that theory, it led to the lawsuit. And so, you know, understanding logically that you can't base a theory on a foundation that's been refuted, the whole thing falls apart, which is why the LAPD was so confident in their case in going to court. They were not going to give any money away. Because they knew that the basis of the theory was disprovable. Okay. Does that make sense to you? Yes. Yes. I hope I'm explaining it. I get a little long-winded because these are complicated. No, this is good. That's why I wanted to be able to just take time and just let it roll because there's a lot of different pieces involved. uh, to this puzzle, um, that need to be put together in order for people to, to be able to have a clear picture. So, um, I have, uh, really just two, two more questions for you. And, um, it's kind of a, a little bit off topic for this, but just in the similar vein. So one thing that we see that obviously kind of exacerbated, uh, the issues with death row and bad boy was, uh, Puffy's choice to kind of associate or use the security. It was already pretty well known that Suge and Def Roe were largely associated with the Bloods. This is an issue that a lot of rappers and entertainers have when it comes to issues of finding security. So if you have people, if you have rappers or executives who are ex-felons, in most cases, they can't carry a gun themselves. And most of the time, they don't have off-duty cops giving them security. And a lot of times they end up associating with gangs, using gangs for street security and stuff like that. So if you're in that situation where you do need protection, you're a celebrity and you're going into a lot of rough environments a lot of times, even to promote your music or to perform in some of these clubs and stuff like that, what would you recommend them do to protect themselves? Should they hire off-duty cops? What can be done to not you know, end up having to use gangs as your security? Well, one is don't create conflict with people. I mean, obviously if, if, if you don't want to live in fear of being, you know, you know, attacked or whatever, you know, don't, don't do things that create conflict with people where you, you know, you inspire that type of activity. So to begin with, obviously, You just don't create problems that you're going to have to worry about later. So that's A. B is there's a lot of very legitimate security companies out there that are professionally trained Navy SEAL guys that are military veterans, ex-cops, retired cops. All of those guys are pretty good at doing their job and not having the compromising issue of actually being a cop. and worrying about losing your, you know, your real job because you're fraternizing with people that are around drugs and maybe around some minor crime and that type of thing. So, um, you just got to think it through, but ultimately, man, don't create problems for yourself by creating enemies. Well, and I think obviously that's, that's very true, but I also think too, there's an issue of, and this is in hip hop, but this is in the world generally, especially right now. Um, you know, there's a lot of envy towards successful people. So, you know, there can be times where even when you're keeping your nose clean, that you can still create enemies because there are people who just hate to see you doing well. Yeah. So you gotta, you gotta look at some of the guys that have successfully kind of evolved outside of the environment where they are in harm's way. You know, you look at the drays and you look at the snoops and you look at the ice cubes and you look at the iced teas and you look at these guys who have been able to kind of operate. Jay-Z. Right. So, you know, you got to ask them, what are you guys doing? Right. And the, the, the final thing I know you, you had just touched on it earlier in terms of you know, kind of the issues that the LAPD had with as far as their reputation goes and stuff like that. Obviously, we know this has been a pretty big conversation going on in the country the last couple of years in particular when it comes to the relationship between law enforcement and the community at large. You know, I'm someone personally who doesn't have as much as a parking ticket, but I've been racially profiled, put in handcuffs for no reason, all that kind of stuff. And thinking about these issues deeper, I think that there's a disconnect between these two communities, these two subcultures, if you will. You know, you mentioned about a lot of the things that law enforcement has to go through. And I've had, like, my father worked in law enforcement. My grandfather worked in law enforcement. My grandfather was one of the first Black sheriffs in the South. So I know that it's a tough job and police officers have to deal with a lot. And I think that in a lot of cases, there's a lot of unaddressed and unresolved trauma that comes from doing that job. But also I think in the community, there's the same, a buddy of mine used to work in violence prevention and he saw studies that showed that inner city youth who live in violent neighborhoods have similar characteristics and similar symptoms as PTSD victims. It looks basically the same, like they're suffering from PTSD. So I think you have two groups here, two subcultures who are talking past one another sometimes, who are both kind of suffering from similar things and dealing with similar issues. So in your opinion, as a former cop, what can be done to to bridge to bridge that gap between law enforcement and the community, because ultimately that ultimately that should be the goal, because, you know, as an African-American, there are times we want to call you, too. You know what I mean? So so what can be done, in your opinion, to to bridge the gap between these two communities? I think we have to breathe before we react. And and in that in that. In that period of time of just sitting and breathing before we react emotionally, we need to then get outside of ourselves. We need to get outside of our own perceptions of things. Not entirely, but to the degree that we need to take the time to go, what does this look like from their perspective? What is it? Why are they doing this? And is there a reason for it? Because so often we're just insular with our perceptions. You know, we see the world the way we see it. But if we take the time to say, let me try to look at this situation from their perspective and have a conversation about it respectfully. And we both need to do that. You know, we need to be able to talk to the community in a way that the community can communicate back with us. You know, when the opportunity arises. Sometimes during these conflicts, there's just no room for like, hey, we need to kind of like, you know, be on mutual grounds. oftentimes cops just got to take control of the situation because the situation's out of control. And so you've got to, we've all got to kind of work together to see the world outside of just our own, you know, very limited perspectives. And, you know, people from the streets need to go, wow, what's it like to patrol these streets and put yourselves in harm's way and, Even though I feel racially profiled, that's what I feel like. But was I? I need to talk to that guy and find out, well, what were you thinking when you stopped me? Did you have a good reason? Because otherwise, you'll never appreciate or respect them. And they're never going to get an understanding of how you feel. So because there's a lot of just perceptions. And they're legitimate because it's your truth. but also there may be more to it. There may be things that you aren't understanding or aren't appreciating. That will broaden this idea of, you know, I only understand the world through my my vision and that's all i care about does that kind of make sense. Absolutely i think um you know one of our uh um one of our fellow people on this network who has a sister show uh kira davis she talks all the time that one of the issues that we have And having these type of conversations is nobody wants to put down their right to be offended. Right. So, you know, so when we when you come to the table, to me, the goal should be reconciliation and not retribution. Right. So in order to have that conversation, everybody has to sit at the table and put down their right to be offended. That's perfect. I like that. Absolutely. Let everybody know how to follow you on social media. Any other projects you got going on? Keep up with you. All that good stuff, sir. Yeah. So I'm just I'm just I'm you know, I do Facebook. I'm kind of a little bit old school. I'm not very tech savvy. I'm not caught up with social media the way that, you know, my son's generation is. But I'm there under my name and I'm always open to answer questions or to, you know, help in any way that I can when it comes to these cases. And that's about it. I'm kind of an open book. And I really appreciate you guys giving me an opportunity to come back here and answer questions because I think it helps people, hopefully, to get some closure. Absolutely. Yeah, thank you so much for joining us on the show and being generous with your time and just going through this entire case with us. We definitely appreciate it. Yeah, my pleasure, man. Go Browns! Go Browns. Miss O'Malley doesn't know how to follow you. You can follow me on Instagram at RealRobinO'Malley and Facebook at Robin O'Malley. And you can follow me at D to Kingpin Everywhere. That's D-T-H-E-K-I-N-G-P-I-N. One more time, I want to send a special shout out again and thank you for Greg Kading coming on the show on that episode. We appreciate it. All right. We are out of here. See you next time. Peace. This has been a presentation of the FCB Podcast Network, where real talk lives. Visit us online at fcbpodcasts.com.